Devdutt Patnaik is a misguided monster. I was a fan of his work for over 5 years and could never understand why people like Rajiv Malhotra always criticized him. May be Rajiv Malhotras envy is getting better of him I thought. I stumbled upon the work of Dr. Wendy Doniger (Guru of of Devdutt Patnaik) The Hindus : Alternative History to be shocked at the level of filth that one so called researcher could put up into one book <link to the book> -

Then I found this ….
<link to Devdutts page with Wendys interview> - Then my admiration for Devdutt Patnaik shattered. It took a while for me to getting used to the new reality of finding my favorite author (back then) to be a HinduPhobe.

I could not get around the extreme popularity of this author and really wanted to understand where I went wrong in understanding his work… It took quite some time before I found one of his tweets (which is now deleted) that he equates consciousness with imagination and thinks that he has solved what scientists call the "Hard problem of consciousness" … Then I understood where he is coming from and why he has a fetish for subtly promoting his fantasy first as myth then as implicit interpretation of Hinduism. either you have to be able to see thru his game or stay away from his work… any other route is going to waste your valuable time.

Kashyapa is a person whose job is to regenerate Earth and then populate it. So we will find different wives and different progenies including dogs (Sarameya from Sarama), River (Iravati) and so on mentioned at different times.

Consider the "Snake" described here as Naga people. The thousand "snakes" are just small but powerful groups of Naga, or may be their kingdom.

Same way, the Garuda and Arun are not birds but kingdoms.

Same way, Kadru and Vinata etc. are metaphors…not necessarily a human being.

There is another story about Indra and Vayu. Vayu's mother was asked to keep vigil while Vayu was in womb. Somehow she fell asleep. Indra went inside the womb and cut the embryo in 49 pieces. It can be realized as a Kingdom in making….jealous Indra divided the people in 49 pieces !

The basic thing is, in most places metaphors are being used to make it easy for people to remember. These Itihasa and Purana were for common people. Veda and Upanishads were for learned people. There metaphors are less, but sometimes more cryptic.

Without understanding metaphors (which, frankly speaking, most of us do not understand), literal study of any epic will create confusion. It is like a English Professor reading a physics book on Quantum mechanics !

regards

If you want to know the truth , the best is to follow the puranas and also look what is in reality . Both should match. In the Puranas, Mahabharata and other Vedic Scriptures every thing is written accurate. That is why Krishna in his Literaire incarnation as Vyasadeva he wrote all the Scriptures 5000 years back for the people of Kali Yuga. Because he knew that in Kali Yuga will be too much confusion , wrong interpretation end EGO.

I have read in the Srimad Bhagwatam about the pleanetary system, About Rasatal, palataal, talataal etc.. Now i am reading about this same but different. You are explaining about these names on the earth. Like mahatala is north america , rasatala is Australia. I know from the Srimad Bhagwatam that these are the lower planetary groups.
Can you explain me how you exactly came to the knowledge that lower planetary names you can use it also for the earth?

Sunil

Please can you provide the original Sanskrit word used in Mahabharata for the following:

1] pork 2] venison 3] wine 4] arm-pit slapping

I have not come across a verse by verse translation [Devanagiri-English]

Many thanks

You are doing a great job analysing the ancient Vedic and Hindu scriptures. Thank you for all your dedicated work!

I'm also doing some research and would be delighted to hear your comment on the following questions.

1) ARYAS VS. MATSYAS MLECCHAS YAVANAS AND VAISYAS.
You mentioned in one of your essays that the Kurus were cultivating brahminical and ksatriya castes and had little sympathy for the trading and fishing communities surrounding their territories. The
arya brahmins dispise also the mlecchas and yavanas (Turks and Greeks) until today.

The reason for their disdain may be that the noble aryas disqualify them for their habit of meateating. Arya is about morality in life and spiritual advancement independent of bodily features, isn't it?

2) OUT OF AFRICA THEORY ABANDONED
The Out of Africa theory is no longer supported by intelligent scientists, except the mainstream, which turns the theory doubtfull anyhow. There have been two great scholars who maintain that the
arya nobility migrated from the North Pole.

One mystic is Lokamanya Bal Gangadhar Tilak, the inspirator of Nehru and Gandhi, who analysed the Rg Veda in jail during British rule. In the vedik rituals he found proof of the Arctic home of the Vedas. They worshipped the dawn of the new sun (after half year of darkness) and celestial bodies at the intervals of natural seasons existent only on the North Pole. At that time that place consisted of a land mass with a subtropical climate and lush greens. So, the oral tradition of Rg Veda must be prediluvial at least 10,500 years ago. Gangadhar Tilak, 'The Arctic Home in the Vedas' 1903 - (guests and low-karma users are not allowed to post links)

The other mystic was Manly Palmer Hall explaining that scientient life entered earth on the North Pole in subtle bodies that were not physical yet. Every living being and all biological cells in nature are constructed with a north and a south pole. Even an egg has a north and a south pole beaming different electromagnetic charges. Therefore, entrance onto the earth was possible only due to the magnetic fields on the Arctic. Hall says, the arya community existed on earth at least one million years ago (guests and low-karma users are not allowed to post links) The archaeological artifacts discussed by Michael Cremo in his books and videos support Hall's theory empirically.

3) CALCULATION OF THE YUGAS
There is confusion about the duration of the yugas mentioned in the Puranas. Svami Sri Yukteshvara Giri from the Himalayas, the disciple of Haidakhan Baba and teacher of Yogananda, published a small
book entitled 'The Holy Science', in the Introduction of which he shows the correct durations of the four yugas. Reason for the miscalculation of the brahmins was, that after the War of Kuruksetra, Yuddhisthira left for the Himalayas and took with him the best of his astrologers and scientists. Those who were left behind on the subcontinent didn't possess enough knowledge to calculate the complex astrological systems in the galaxy. The result was that they inflated each yuga with a factor of 100.

The Puranas tell us that Kali-yuga will last for 432,000 years. In reality, it will last only 4,500 years. Kali-yuga began at the end of Kurukshetra War and had its darkest period around 500 BC. The
dark age ended around 1500 AD. So according to the calculation by the yogis in the Himalayas, where the correct knowledge still exists, we are 500 years in Dvapara-yuga now.

4) THE VEDAS WERE LOOTED FROM THE TAMILS
The Tamils however will say that the Aryan deities - Vishnu, Shiva, Brahma - were 'looted' from the Tamils. The Persian 'immigrants' Sanskritised ancient Tamil knowledge and modified their scriptures
according to taste. The man who's doing the research of Tamil and Aryan history says, "The Deities are Tamil, the stories are Aryan". Their original mystic system was called 'Aaseevaham'.

The knowledge of the Four Vedas was given by Shiva at the First Sangam 10-20,000 years ago. Shiva contracted four disciples (the Four Kumaras, his 'brothers') to hear and remember his teachings. The researcher shows that Shiva was from the Paleolithic era, Murugan Mesolithic and Vishnu Neolithic. All these 'deities' were human beings who later became deified in temples of worship for the common man. Vishnu was a keen astronomer who went to Meso-America to teach the Mayas. The Mayan Calendar was taught by Vishnu. Shiva started the first Sangam and introduced written language in images for the first time. Two Sangams followed in later times from which the Tamil language was generated. 'The Ancient Culture of Tamils' (playlist) (guests and low-karma users are not allowed to post links)

What are your thoughts on these subjects, please, Jijith?

Namasté
Iris

it is strange matter that , in Samhita period Arjuna is the other name of Kutsa and Karna was the another name of Shushna.

Bharat Charitra Pariksha written by Vasistha ganapati Muni and presented in Valter(Andhra Pradesh )

I am translating this book into Kannada (Dravidian language) Vol No1 and Vol 2.
Vol No 1 is available.

This is for your information

Puttu Kulkarni
HEGDE-KUMTA- 581330
India
=91 9448774920

I saw a blog comment where you asked for spelling correction…
the word 'lied' is used incorrectly, so here is some minor corrections as you asked :-)

eg
,,,thus included territories that lied lay to the south of Kuru-Panchala (or 'were positioned' to the south)
…included the kingdoms that lied in the southern banks of Ganga-Yamuna (or 'were situated on' the southern…
…The route that lied went to the immediate south of [the] Himalayan mountains, was another Uttarapatha route leading to Pragjyotisha, passing through the Kirata territories
…The populated regions of the Kuru kingdom <…> lied lay between Ganga and Yamuna
…the immediate region where it lied lay was considered as part of Kuru country (or 'was situated')
…passed through Kuru-jangala that lied lay to the north (or 'was situated')
…Kalakuta lied lay in the territories controlled by the Kurus (or 'was situated')
…that lied lay on the banks of Sarayu with Ayodhya
etc

I forgot (but I think it would not be necessary to be mentioned for you): This also contradicts the AIT fundamentaly.

In terms of the AIT I agree with you, but I don't believe the so called "aryan people" to be indegenous to India, because according to the Puranas Manu Vaivasvata came to the Himalaya by ship. I think (and I got good reasons for that) the "aryan people" came from Kumari Kandam erroniously identified with the never existant Lemuria but in fact identical with Sundaland as can be seen with Google Earth very clearly because this area is within the range of the sea level rising after the last ice age.

HERE COMES MY QUESTION
the sindu very river when comparing to saraswathi river that was running during mahabharatha period.
1. How could horse nomads cross such a big river and come to india??
2.how could they fight the dravidan(accoring to them)who knows their living places better than them?
3.how could the aryan defeat the dravidans who were heroic warriors?

ANSWERS
1.not even a mobilezed and well trained army like alexander could not even cross a river(sindhu) that was a branch river of saraswathi river.then how can the SO CALLED ARYANS CROSS THE SARASWATHI RIVER,SINDHU RIVER and invade india.the truth is they never invaded.but was invented
2.every one knows that the natives knows the places better than the new one.even a fool know it well
3.the horse nomads doesnot even have proper battle training .then how could they defeat the socalled dravidans .the mohedora,harapps sites shows the people living there were highly knowledeged ,modernized,skillful than any other people in the world.they should have a better army to fight the so calld invaders

If we apply this on the myth of the chariot of the sun god Surya, it would show us, that the sun was not believed to be stationary but moving. This is because the solar system is part of a spiral arm of our galaxy. The galaxy is rotating, so the solar system as a whole is moving and there are other levels of movement too. The ancient indian people used the picture of the chariot, to point out this fact of the moving sun, while the ancient egyptian people showed the same fact by painting their gods situated in boats.

Those people were different than us, those times were different too, we don't need to assume something, everything written in scriptures is true. Kamsa killed 7 children before Krishna, ganga drowned those children's due to curse.

We at this modern age are still discovering things, and there is a lot to discover. Those people at dwapara and thretha yuga's were lot more advanced and they had strict rules and policies on how to live once life. We didn't knew that there was a nuclear explosion while Mahabharata war, until we got proof of that near kurukshethra, we are not even 1% technologically and spiritually competent to people of those times. they built ramasethu, they built dwarika on sea, they travelled on vimanas ..

What about Parushurama who trained karna, and bheeshma and dronacharya?

What about bheema meeting hanuman and asking for help in war…..?

parushurama was present while seetha swayamvaram and parushurama was still there while mahabharatha…..if you think ramayana happened in recent thretha yuga then you are wrong, vedas clearly mention that in 16th thretha yuga ramayana happened and in recent dwapara yuga mahabharatha happened.

आचार्य चतुरसेन शास्त्री की पुस्तक "वैदिक संस्कृति पर आसुरी प्रभाव " से कुछ उद्धरण - --- ( खंड XII )
-- कृष्ण कौन हैं---
(प्र० सं ०176 - 181 ) कृष्ण : कृष्ण कौन हैं ,उनका कुल वंश ,जाति,देश, राज्य आज तक ठीक ठीक पता नहीं लग पाया है । साथ ही कंस के मथुरा राज्य का भी कोई ऐतिहासिक आधार प्राप्त नहीं है । कनिंघम ने जो मथुरा की खुदायी कराई थी , उसमें "कंस का टीला " नाम का विख्यात ढूह एक बौध विहार स्तूप प्रमाणित हुआ । पुराणों में मथुरा , इन्द्रप्रष्थ और हस्तिनापुर के तीन चक्रवर्ती राज्य वर्णित हैं । ……..इन्द्रप्रस्थ से हस्तिनापुर ६० मील और मथुरा ८० मील है । मथुरा से गोकुल और वृन्दावन ४-५ मील है ।ऐसी दशा में इन तीन प्रदेशों में तीन चक्रवर्ती महाराज्य कैसे ? और वे चक्रवर्ती भी कैसे ? " आसमुद्र क्षितीश " ?……कंस प्रेरित अक्रूर कृष्ण को गोकुल से मथुरा ले जाने को वायुवेगी (?) रथ पर चढ़कर मथुरा से चले तो प्रातः काल से चलकर संध्याकाळ में पहुंचे ?…….यह एक चमत्कारिक बात है की कृष्ण एक बार मथुरा आकर फिर गोकुल गए ही नहीं ? …… महाभारत से प्रतीत होता है की शिशुपाल ,दु:शासन आदि दस -दस सहस्री राजा हुए हैं ? पूर्वोक्त महाराज्यों की स्थापना स्पष्ट ही कोरी कल्पना प्रतीत होती है । इस बात का भी कोई ऐतिहासिक आधार प्राप्त नहीं है की कृष्ण पांडवों के समसामयिक थे ।महाभारत में ही एकमात्र उल्लेख है । फिर महाभारत में कंस और कौरवों का कोई सम्बन्ध नहीं दिखाया गया है

पौराणिक राजवंश और कृष्ण-यदुवंश की माथुर शाखा में , वैवश्वत मनु की पुत्री इला और पुरुवंश की संतानों मे ५२ वीं पीढ़ी में 'आहुक " नाम के एक राजा हुए हैं । उनके समसामयिक एक राजा देवमीढस कहीं थे ,जो पूर्वोक्त(यदुवंश की माथुर शाखा के ) वंश वृत्त के( ४६वीं पीढ़ी के) राजा वृष्णि से भिन्न किसी अन्य वृष्णि वंश के थे । उन्हीं के वंश में चौथी पीढ़ी में कंस का नाम है ।
शूरसेन जनपद:-मथुरा के चरों और का इलाका उन दिनों शूरसेन जनपद कहाता था ।{जिसमें पांच स्थल ,१२ वन, मथुरा और एक और पुर Kleisobra थे (टालमी का भारत-प्र १८ ) } {(यदुवंश ,माथुर शाखा की पूरी सूचि देखने पर वैवश्वत मनु से ५२ पीढ़ी में "अहूक" के पुत्र उग्रसेन ,उनके पुत्र कंस (५४वी पीढ़ी) तथा आहुक के दुसरे पुत्र देवक , पुत्री देवकी और उनके पुत्र कृष्ण का नाम आता है, जबकि ४४ वीं पीढ़ी में वृष्णि का नाम आता है , और वृष्णि की शाखा में कृष्ण ,कंस ,देवकी इत्यादि का नाम कहीं नहीं है ( देखिये पृष्ठ १७७ - १८0 ) } (प्र० सं ०180 - 181 ) राम के काल में ही शत्रुघ्न ने मथुरा के शासक लवणासुर को मारकर मथुरा पर अधिकार कर लिया था । बाद में भीम सात्वत ने शत्रुघ्न वंशियों से मथुरा छीन ली थी । भीम सात्वत ( यदुवंश , माथुर शाखा की ४३ वीं पीढ़ी ) राम से एक -दो पीढ़ी बाद के ही पुरुष हैं । तब से मथुरा पर सात्वत वंश का ही राज्य रहा । कंस उन्हीं के वंश का था ।…………. कृष्ण को गीता में वार्ष्णेय कहा गया है ।परन्तु आप देखते हैं कि यादवों के वृष्णि वंश में कृष्ण नहीं हैं । प्रधान सीतानाथ एक दुसरे वृष्णि वंश का पुश्तनामा देते हैं( जिसमें तीसरी पीढ़ी में वासुदेव और फिर उनके पुत्र कृष्ण कृष्ण का नाम देवमीढस पीढ़ी में आता है) किन्तु उनका कहना है की यह पूरा प्राप्त नहीं है ………अक्रूर का राज्य गुजरात में था ।…….पुराण कहीं कृष्ण के पिता का नाम वसुदेव और कहीं वासुदेव कहते हैं ।
(प्र० सं ०188-195 ) … पुरानों से प्रकट है की कृष्ण की बुआ कुंती पांडवों की माता थीं । परन्तु यहाँ हमें कुछ बातों पर विचार करना चाहिए । …कृष्ण पांडवों का सम्बन्ध केवल महाभारत में ही है । पांडवों का महत्त्व , पांडवों की विशेषताएं एकमात्र महाभारत में ही हैं , अन्यत्र कहीं नहीं ।ऐतिहासिक आधार सर्वप्रथम हम जन्मेजय और परीक्षित का पाते हैं ।……. वायु पुराण के अनुसार परीक्षित का जन्म महापद्म नन्द से १०५०वर्ष पूर्व हुआ ।महाभारत के समय वे गर्भ में थे । महाभारत उनका राज्यकाल ६० वर्ष बताता है और गद्दी पाने के समय वे ३६ वर्ष के थे । …… परीक्षित का नाम अथर्ववेद , ऐतरेय ब्रह्मण ,शतपथ ब्रह्मण और महाभारत में भी है ……..कृष्ण के मथुरा से द्वारिका चले जाने पर जरासंध ने मथुरा को अधिकृत कर लिया था । जब जरासंध की मृत्यु हो गयी तो मथुरा पर नागों ने अधिकार कर लिया था । भारत संग्राम में राज्य सब नष्ट -भ्रष्ट हो चुके थे ।अतः तक्ष शिला और मथुरा पर नागों ने अधिकार कर लिए तथा परीक्षित तक्षक नाग द्वारा मार डाले गए ।….प्रसिद्द है की जन्मेजय परीक्षित के पुत्र बहुत भारी सम्राट थे । ….. इन्होने नागों को हराकर तक्षशिला और मथुरा के राज्य नागों से छीन लिए थे तथा मथुरा पर कृष्ण के प्रपौत्र बज्रनाभ का अधिकार हो गया था । बज्रनाभ और जन्मेजय मित्र राज्य थे । …………ब्रह्मण ग्रन्थ जन्मेजय की प्रशंसा से भरे पड़े हैं ……….वाल्मीकि भी उन्हें प्राचीन भारी नरेश कहता है । शतपथ, पाणिनि और ऐतरेय उनकी राजधानी आसंदिवन बताता है । परन्तु महाभारत ,रामायण ,हस्तिनापुर बताते हैं । …….परन्तु यह बड़े आश्चर्य की बात है की जहां जन्मेजय और परीक्षित का ब्रह्मण ग्रंथों में इतनी धूम धाम से वर्णन है , वहां पांडवों का नाम ब्राह्मणों में क्यों नहीं आया । वहां पांडवों का कहीं भी नामो निशान नहीं है । पाजितर के अनुसार भारत युद्ध ९५० ई० पु० में हुआ और युद्ध के पश्चात ३६ वर्ष पांडवों ने राज्य करके महाप्रस्थान किया । इसके बाद ही परीक्षित रजा हुए । टूटे फूटे जो वर्णन हैं , वे बड़े विचित्र हैं । इसी से कुछ विद्वान् कहते हैं की पांडव कभी हुए ही नहीं । महाभारत संग्राम कुरु -संजयों का संग्राम है । इन दोनों वंशों के वैमनस्य का वर्णन शतपथ ब्रह्मण में है । पतंजलि नकुल सहदेव को कौरव कहते हैं ।…. इन्द्रप्रस्थ को कौरव्य कहा गया है ।… इस बात के भी प्रमाण हैं की यह परीक्षित और जन्मेजय , जिनका ब्रह्मण ग्रंथों में वर्णन है, पांडवों के उत्तराधिकारी नहीं हैं , पूर्व पुरुष हैं । ( महाभारत ही की आदि पर्व में दी गयी कुरु वंश की वंशावली में एक परीक्षित और दो जन्मेजय हैं किन्तु ये तीनों शांतनु महाभिश के पूर्व पुरुष हैं । ……….इन सब प्रमाणों से तो यह निश्चित होता है की ब्रह्मण ग्रंथों में वर्णित तथा पुराणों में भी वर्णित परीक्षित और जन्मेजय , सुभद्रा-अभिमन्यु पुत्र तथा महाभारत उत्तरकालीन पुरुष नहीं , महाभारत संग्राम से कोई १०० या इससे अधिक वर्ष पूर्व के पुरुष हैं । …..शांतनु के सम्बन्ध में फिर भी यास्कीय निरुक्त , वायु पुराण में, तथा मत्स्य में संकेत मिलते हैं परन्तु उससे आगे किसी कौरव , पांडव के नहीं । यदि महाभारत को प्रमाण न माना जाए तो पांडवों का कहीं कोई अस्तित्व प्रतीत ही नहीं होता अतः पांडवों की कृष्ण से मित्रता और फुफेरे भाई का रिश्ता एवं समसामयिकता में घोर संदेह है ।….{कुंती के भी विषय में महाभारत,वायु पुराण , मत्स्य पुराण — कुन्तिभोज और शूरसेन कि कड़ी मिलाने पर विश्लेषण करके यह पता चलता है कि कुंती कन्या तो वासुदेव के पिता शूर की थी लेकिन कुन्तिभोज (चेदी वंश के ) वासुदेव ने उसे गोद लिया था…..जो एक क्लिष्ट कल्पना प्रतीत होती है ) } महाभारत के अनुसार महाभारत काल में गंधार का राजा सुबल था । उसकी पुत्री गांधारी धृतराष्ट्र को ब्याही थी ।गांधारी का भाई शकुनी था ..इन सब नामों और रिश्तों का आधार भी एकमात्र महाभारत ही है । अन्यत्र हमें दुसरे आधार मिलते हैं । माहभारत काल में गांधार का रजा नग्नजित था ………नग्नजित का पुत्र सुबल को बताया गया है । नग्नजित की कन्या सत्यकृष्ण को ब्याही थी । यह विवाह यद्ध के द्वारा बलात हुआ था ।
(प्र० सं ०195-198 )ऋग्वेद और कृष्ण _ ऋग्वेद में कृष्ण से सम्बंधित हमें तीन ऋचाएं मिलती हैं , वे ये हैं —
अव द्रप्सो अंशुमती मतिष्ठिदियानाह कृष्णो दशभिः सहस्त्रैह‘।
आवतमिन्द्र : शच्या धमन्तमप स्तेहिती नृमणा अघंत ।।
द्रप्समपश्यम` विपुने चरन्त मुपह्वरे नद्यो अन्शुमत्या : ।
नभो न कृष्णमवत स्थिवांमिष्यामि यो वृषणो युध्यताजौ ।।
अघ द्रप्सो अन्शुमत्या उपस्थे$धार यत्तन्वम तित्विषाणः ।
विशो अदेवीरभ्या चरन्ती वृहस्पतिना युजेंद्र : ससाहे । ।
(ऋ ० ८/९६/१३-१५ )
इन ऋचाओं का सारांश यह है की शीघ्रगामी कृष्ण ने १० हजार सेना के साथ अंशुमती नदी के समीप छावनी डाली ।( चारों और महाकोलाहल से पूर्ण ) । ऋग्वेद में एक कथा और है जिसमें इस बात का उल्लेख है की अंशुमती तट पर कृष्ण को युद्ध में न जीत सकने के कारण इन्द्र ने कृष्ण के देश की कुछ स्त्रियों के गर्भ विदीर्ण कर डाले थे ।
उस काल में पंजाब और सिंध का संयुक्त नाम ’सप्त सिन्धु "था ।तथा उस पर वृत्र का अधिकार था । यह वृत्र असुर याजक भृगु के वंश का था तथा दासों का नेता था , जिनके गानों का सप्तसिंधु पर अधिकार था । इन्द्र ने जो देवरात था , तथा जिसकी राजधानी देवलोक (एलम ) थी , पञ्च सिन्धु पर चढ़ाई की थी । उन दिनों परसिया का पूर्वी और उत्तरी भाग एलम या इलावर्त कहाता था । इन्द्र ने यह अभियान संभवतः फारस की खाड़ी केकिनारे किनारे आ कर किया था ।तथा वह वर्तमानं कराची के आस पास सिंध में प्रविष्ट हुआ था । इसका स्पष्ट संकेत जातक अट्टकथा के इक्कीसवें जातक में एक गाथा में है । उसका अभिप्राय यह है की देवों और असुरों के दो अयोध्या नगर थे ।उनके बीच में इन्द्र ने उरंग , करोति, पयस्सहारी और मदन युत चार महंत रखे । ये दो अयोध्या नगर कौन से थे तथा उनके बीच में रक्षक ये विभिन्न जाती के चार दिगपाल कौन थे ? इस रहस्य का रूप तो तब स्पष्ट होगा जब मोहनजोदाड़ो और हरप्पा के अभिलेख पढ़े जा सकेंगे ।इस गाथा का इन्हीं नगरों से सम्बन्ध है, इस संदेह के बहुत से कारण हैं । कदाचित इन्द्र ने कलात की राह सिंध में प्रवेश किया और सिंध विजय कर वह कच्छ की और बढ़ा , जहां दृषद्वती के बीहड़ों में कृष्ण ने उसका अवरोध किया और इन्द्र को परास्त होकर पीछे लौटना पड़ा ।
ऋग्वेद के इस सन्दर्भ का समर्थन होता है श्री मद्भागवत से ।(अध्याय २४,२५ ) ……. इस बात के यथेष्ट प्रमाण हैं की इन्द्र ने सप्तसिंधु (सिंध) अधिकृत करके ही कृष्ण पर यह आक्रमण किया था । उसने इलाम (परसिया ) से आकर और दासों से विग्रह करके सिंध में अपना राज्य स्थापित किया था ।वह साहसी, पराक्रमी और खटपटी युवक अपनी मुठमर्दी से इलाम के देवों का नेता बन गया था।--उसने पूर्व की और प्रसार किया और पञ्च सिन्धु के नेता वृत्र को मार डाला ।दासों के नेता दिवोदास तथा उसके पुत्र सुदा: त्रसदस्यु , एवं पुरु से उसने संधि कर तुर्वश और यदु दासों को मिलाकर अपना साम्राज्य सिंध में जमाया । ………..परन्तु कृष्ण ने इन्द्र की दाल नहीं गलने दी और जंगली प्रदेशों का आश्रय लेकर उसने अपने अनुयायियों की रक्षा की । ऐसी दशा में अवैदिक भारतियों में उसकी पूजा प्रचलित हो गयी । -- जिस कृष्ण की ऋग्वेद में प्रतिष्ठा है और जो प्रतापी इन्द्र का प्रतिद्वंदी है , वह किसी भाँती महाभारत युद्ध का नेता नहीं हो सकता । हाँ यदि महाभारत युद्ध ही कल्पित हो और ऋग्वेद में वर्णित दाशराज्ञ युद्ध को या कुरु -संजय युद्ध को महाभारत कल्पित किया गया हो तो कृष्ण का वहां उपस्थित होकर इन्द्र की स्पर्धा करना संभव हो सकता है । तब कंस का मथुरा महाराज्य तथा कृष्ण की गोकुल लीलाओं का कोई भी ऐतिहासिक आधार नहीं दीख पड़ता । …………
(प्र० सं ०198-204 ) विदेशों में कृष्ण :-भारत से बाहर भी कृष्ण से सम्बंधित बहुत सी बातें हैं । कृष्ण की पूजा ग्रीस, रोम व मिश्र में अपोलो(Apolo) , कर्ण (Carna), या कान्ह नामों से होती है । हेरोदेट्स के सीथियन देव 'हरकुलस " और 'जेबेलाईज (Gebeleizes) ", बलदेव और गोपाल ही प्रतीत होते हैं । जेबेलाईज , गोपाल का और हर्कुलीज ,हरिकुलेश का अपभ्रंश प्रतीत होते हैं । ……….ईरान ही का एक इलाका -Media-Atropatene-Media,Magog या Media Agheana कहाता है ।…….इन प्रदेशों के निवासी "गोमाता " कहाते थे । अब हमें इस बात की कल्पना करने का आधार मिलता है की कृष्ण के इन्द्र से विग्रह होने के फलस्वरूप इन्हीं "गोमाता " लोगों की रक्षा कृष्ण ने इन्द्र से की है , क्योंकि वैदिक साहित्य में वर्णित इन्द्र का चरित्र एक धूर्त दुराचारी पुरुष के सामान प्रतीत होता है ।……………
कृष्ण की कुछ उपाधियाँ हैं — मुरारी, जगदाधार, मधुसुदन, केशव , गोविन्द , गोपाल , कुंजबिहारी , तथा वनमाली । अब इन नामों ही को विदेशी इतिहास की कसौटी पर कसिये
भागवत दशम स्कंध में नरकासुर और मुर के असुर को जीतकर इन्द्र की सहायता करने की कथा है ।….इन्द्र देव(Indabugash) एलiम (Elam) का राजा था ।……….वहीँ ,कलातनादारी के निकट पुराण वर्णित "अपवर्त "(बावर्द ) या (अबिवार्ड) दोज़ख देश है , जिसे पुरानों में नरक कहा गया है । ……….मुरु प्रदेश भी वहीँ एक बड़ा इलाका है जिसे अब "मर्गियाना " या 'मर्व्दस्त ' कहते हैं । इसी इलाके को छूता हुआ प्रदेश असुरों (खरो) का इश्त्खर है । इन इलाकों की सीमाएं परस्पर मिली हुयी हैं । यह स्वाभाविक था की मुरु के असुरों तथा नरकासुर एवं इश्त्खर के असुरों से इन्द्र का सीमा प्रदेशों से सम्बंधित विग्रह रहता हो । कृष्ण ने इन्द्र से संधि करने के बाद इन्द्र की सहायता कर इन्द्र के इन पडोसी असुरों का संहार किया हो और "मुरारी " उपाधि पाई हो i
ईरान में असुरों का एक राज्य असीरिया भी था । इस देश को "मधु" भी कहते थे । इसे विजय करके कृष्ण ने "मधुसुदन" नाम पाया हो । इसी असुर्वंश की एक शाखा सीरिया के असुर (Essur ) नगर में राज्य करती थी । सीरिया को ही "श्याम "(Shiam ) भी कहा है । कृष्ण ने संभवतः इस प्रदेश को जय करके "श्याम की उपाधि पाई हो । समरकंद के निकट एक देश "केश " है । यह देश विजय करके कृष्ण "केशव " कहाए हों । भागवत ( १० वां स्कंध ) में लिखा है की सत्यभामा के लिए कृष्ण इन्द्र को जीतकर कल्प वृक्ष नंदन वन से लाये थे तथा नंदनवन को अर्जुन ने दहा था ।यह महाभारत में संकेत है ।….. इन्द्र का यह नंदनवन ईरान का "पार्दिया " या "मीडिया " इलाका था ।इन इलाकों के निवासी 'नंदिनी गो " कहाते थे तथा "पार्दीय " नरेशों की उपाधि 'गोपाल " थी और वे "गदाधर (club bearers ) कहलाते थे । संभव है की ये गोपाल इन्द्र के सामंत हों । इन्हें विजय करके संभवतः कृष्ण ने 'गोपाल" "गदाधर " और "गोविन्द" ) की उपाधि पायी थी । कृष्ण को "कुञ्ज बिहारी " और "रसिक बिहारी " भी कहते हैं । "कुञ्ज " खुरासान का प्राचीन नाम है । इसी को "कुञ्ज रसिक " भी कहते हैं । इन प्रदेशों को विजय करने या यहाँ निवास करने से संभवतः कृष्ण की उपाधि "कुञ्ज बिहारी " या "रसिक बिहारी " पड़ी हो । कृष्ण का एक नाम वनमाली भी है । वन (Van) ईरान का महा प्राचीन नगर है । …………..यहीं अनिरुद्ध -उषा के विवाह सम्बन्धी युद्ध में कृष्ण व बलराम ने वाणासुर को पराजित किया था । तभी संभवतः उन्होंने "वनमाली "उपाधि पायी हो । ……..नृसिंह के बड़े भाई नृग को इन्द्र पद प्राप्त था । ये बड़े गोदानी थे \ अज्ञान से दान में दी हुयी गौ पुनः ब्राह्मण को दे देने से ये गिरगिट बनाकर द्वारिका के पास अंध कूप में दाल दिए गए ।जहां से कृष्ण ने उनका बाणासुर -युद्ध के अवसर पर उद्धार किया ।…….. कम्बोज गिरगिस (उत्तरी तुर्किस्तान में ) इलाके का नाम है और कृष्ण ने नरक और मुरु दैत्य राजाओं को जीतकर , न्रिग्वंशियों को इलाम -सुसियाना का अधिपति बनाया हो , जहाँ आज तक उनके वंशज रहते हैं । इन सारे प्रमाणों से हम कम से कम इस निष्कर्ष पर तो पहुंचाते ही हैं की कृष्ण का सम्बन्ध जितना फारस , तुर्किस्तान , कंधहयों से है , उतना भारत से नहीं , और कृष्णऋग्वेदकालीन इन्द्र के समसामयिक हैं , महाभारत काल के पुरुष नहीं ।
अब मिश्र के इतिहास की भी छानबीन होनी चाहिए ।हम देखते हैं की मिश्र के Kan और इन्द्रदीप (भारत ) के कान्ह में बहुत समता है । डियोडोरस और टाड कान को अपोलो का पर्याय मानते हैं i ( Apollo of Nile— Kan ,the Egyptian title of Apollo or The Sun-God ) | वे इसे वंशीवादक(Protector of Nine Musics ) भी मानते हैं । यदि आप ग्रीस के (Phythic Apollo) से काली मर्दन की घटना का मिलान करें तो बहुत समता पायेंगे ।Todd का तो यह भी मत है की ब्रिटनी के (Carnac ) में (Druid ) निर्मित जो Cetic (Apollo ) की मूर्ति है , वह कृष्ण ही की है । (Druid ) की बनायीं ऐसी ही कृष्ण की मूर्तियाँ सारे योरोप में थीं ।
प्रसिद्ध है की कृष्ण गुर्जर् प्रदेश में द्वारिका में जाकर रहे …….. 'गुर्ज " नाम गदा का है । ईरानी भाषा में इसे गोपाल कहते हैं । ईरान में जो पार्दिया प्रदेश है , वहां के पारद नरेश गदाधारी ( Club Bearers ) कहाते थे । दुसरे शब्दों में वे "गोपाल" भी उपनाम धारण करते थे । पार्दिया प्रदेश का नाम भी गुर्जर (Gurjar) था , जिसकी राजधानी टाक देश(Takka-Desa) थी ।………. इसी गुर्जर देश में कुशान प्रांत है । वहां के कुशनों की परंपरा संभवतः कृष्ण वन्ह से है अथवा कुशान कृष्ण वंशी ही हैं ।

Regarding the episode of humiliation of Duryodhana at Sabha, here is the chapter describing it:- http://ancientvoice.wikidot.com/src-mbh-02:section-49. There is no mention of Draupadi calling Duryodhana blind. The story of Gandhari making Duryodhana iron-bodied using her vision too is not found in any main version of Mahabharata.

Creating a Mahabharata text after rejecting what is percieved as later addition will not be a good idea as all these later additions too have information value. It will be a futile excersise like what happened with Bible. A lot of valuable information generated during the formative period of Bible was lost due to such mindless editing and monopolistic views. Traditions which does not fall in line with the majoritarian view were declared herasies. A similar futile exerciese is already done for Mahabharata with the so called 'critical edition of Mahabharata'. Many scholars do not accept the criteria chosen to declare one verse as original and another as later addition.

Regarding your question on the glorification of death (and birth) of war heroes on the side of Kauravas (as well as those on the side of the Pandavas):- Many scholars think in this way. Mahabharata text passed through the hands of many people sympathetic to both the sides and a neutral compiler has added all of these versions into the main corpus.

Some other verses like the one you mentioned about Bhima having strength of 10000 elephants etc are pure exagerations or the liberty of the poet.

As we know the original Mahabharata compiled by Vyasa was "Jaya". Over the years many stories were added in the original book of Vyasa and it took its present form during Gupta period. There are many interpolations in Mahabharata, many myths have been added in this epic. You have done a lot of research on Mahabharata. Why don't you try to find out the original story and write a new book that is free of all these myths and interpolations ?

Do you think that the death of all the prominent warriors of Mahabharata have been dramatized by some later authors ? All of them turned into invincible warriors just before their death. I think Shikhandi and Dristidyumna killed Bhishma and Drona respectively in a fair battle and the stories of Bhishma not attacking Shikhandi and Drona's celestial weapons not appearing before his death were added later to cover up their failure. Bhishma and Drona were famed warriors but the impact of the old age on them was evident. They couldn't kill any prominent warrior. What you have to say on this ?

You have created a wonderful site here. I just beginning to read and study the Mahabharata, it is so endlessly fascinating. I have a few questions, hopefully you can answer them.

1. One of my major references is the legendary TV series made by B.R. Chopra. How do you find that as a conference? Is it faithful to the text or takes liberties?

2. I am looking for two specific conflict points which I was not able to find in the text which were portrayed in the TV series. The first is Draupadi calling Duryodhan blind when he falls into a pool of water. Is this from the text?

And the second is Gandhari making Duryodhan iron-bodied with her vision. Is this from the text as well?

Mahabharata contain more than 2000 chapters / adhyayas distributed in 18 books / volumes / parvas. Please locate your information with book number, chapter number and verse number to remove any other confusion you may have.

Any comments?

It goes without saying that like any other power, Yogic power too can be misused or could produce suffering to the world if it reaches wrong hands like Duryodhana and Ravana. That is why Yogis are even today advised to control their power and use it only to attain self-realization, not for worldly occult powers, that could turn dangerous if the person wielding those powers become corrupt.

Though we can not deny the possibility of some consciousness based weapons in ancient times. But I think that only very few people can have that power. In Mahabharata you can see every Tom, Dick and Harry using brahmastra. All the battles have been exaggerated using ornamental language in later times. Now every duel became equal to that of between Indra and Vritra.

Warriors like Drona, Ashwatthama, Karna, etc were ordinary humans. They were never known for their spirituality or ascetics. So I think these Brahmastra, Narayanastra etc were some rocket like fire weapons but not the Nuclear bombs or missiles of present time. It appears to me that these weapons were man made fire arms and warriors had named these weapon after the names of some devas and sages.

In my view, the technology was not at a very advanced stage in those days. Kurukshetra war seems to be a conventional war. For the first nine days, this war was like a showdown from both sides. No serious direct encounters between maharathis. Soldiers from both sides were fighting at the front. By the 10th day, both the armies reduced considerably. Now the generals from both sides engaged each other in direct encounters.

My general view is that poets have embellished and added a lot of their imagination and exageration in creating these myths found in Mahabharata (same with Ramayana and the Puranas). But undoubtadly they are based on some real experience or a historical core. Karna's armour, I have explained in one article as an armor made of new technology 'like the use of iron' for example, a little ahead of time probably, which made it to catch a lot of attention from other warriors and the bards, to the point that the bards and eulogists started singing that Karna had that armor right from his birth. In reality it could have specially designed by the iron smiths in Anga kingdom (ie central, south Bihar and Jharkhand, a place today is famous for its iron ores). I have written about it in murals-for-mahabharat and in more detail here episode7.

The celestial weapons are discussed here:-astras. Apart from what is discussed here, I am also now exploring the possibility of the ancient usage of consciousness based technologies. We generally tend to think that meditation techniques and concentrating on ones own conscsiousness is usually aimed at self-realization. That indeed is its primary and ultimate goal, but it seems it has many secondary usefulness and usage, known to the ancients but forgotten now. In this technique the practicionor is able to manipulate natural forces using thought power or using the power of meditation. A new research field is born in the last decade (2000-2010) which focus on the power of consciousness and its impact on the immediate surroundings and the cosmos at large. Stuart Hamerof and Roger Penrose are some of the leading scientists working on this issue. The conclusion of their theories is that 'consciousness' is not the result of brain-activity but it is an inherent property of the fine structure of the universe, like 'mass'. Brain simply act as an interface into this universal consciousness and the uniquness of data, information, knowledge and experience stored in each individual brain gives us individuality, ego, sense of separation and the illusion of many individuals. This new paradigm shift can explain what we know about celestial weapons, (Divya Astras) from the epics and Puranas. Thought power can generate tremendous energy fluctuations in the immediate natural surroundings. It can create force fields that can deter the harmful rays of a conventional nuclear radiation and it can as well produce a nuclear explotion by its own impact on nature. Remember that nuclear level is smaller than the atomic level and thus closer to the quantum level where consciousness is operating. Thus some of the weapons the warriors mentioned in the epics and puranas were simple ordinary weapons, some chemical like the fire weapon and some others were weapons made of conscious thought power. For more details see my articles:-

1. http://recentvoice.wikidot.com/notes:vedanta-and-quantum-consciousness
2. http://recentvoice.wikidot.com/search:site/q/consciousness

What do you think about the supernatural events given in Mahabharata ? Were these myths have been created later taking clue from some real events ? How can a person take birth with an armor ? In Mahabharata we can see a warrior absorbing hundreds of arrows and every prominent warrior having "celestial weapons" like brahmastra.

What these so called celestial weapons were ? Some people say that these weapons were like the nuclear bombs of present time. But I don't think so. When Ashwatthama fired narayanastra at Bhima, Bhima didn't die. And when Karna fired bhargavastra, no pandava maharathi got killed. It could kill only some foot soldiers fighting in open.

The 9th Century BC date for Kurukshetra war is arrived at based on the discredited Aryan Invasion Theory, which is inspired by the Biblical studies in 18th century, based on which the Biblical God created this world in around 4000 BC!

The calculations based on archeo-astronomy (ie based on planetary positions) is not vague and cannot be easily dismissed. It is having very high coherence with the various dates and corresponding planetary positions mentioned in Mahabharata epic. Inferences based on archeology are not conclusive as archeology is like an unfinished painting. New archeological discoveries can happen any time, new ancient sites can be unearthed any time and the data can swing in any direction.

The dates for Kurukshetra War arrived at using archeo-astronomy (3067 BCE) is close to the traditional date (3138 BCE) given to it by the Hindu tradition supported by ancient mathematicians like Aryabhata. This error of 71 years is reasonable, since it happened 5000 years ago.

We cannot under-estimate our own traditions and dismiss them so easily, especially since Indian mathematicians were the first to use decimal system, precise numerical measurements, geometry and algebra. The West came to know about Indian mathematics through Arab traders and till then they were using the crude Roman Numerals (I, II, III, IV …) which limited their ability to analyze large numbers or do basic mathematics like addition, subtraction, multiplication and division properly. This is why their world view was so crippled and childish, thinking that the world was created in 4000 BC. For them, 4000 BC was too huge a number and too distant into the past.

The points like 1) start of Iron age in India, assuming that it started in 10th century and that 2) place names found in Mahabharata matches with the place names found in Buddhist period of 6th century BC - are too crude to put any accurate date on Mahabharata. All it proves is that Mahabharata is older than Buddhist period of 6th century BC and Iron age start of 9th century BC, but it does not put any upper limit to the ancientness of the events described in Mahabharata.

However it is true that Mahabharata grew from its humble beginnings in 3000 BCE with additions from redactors who narrated it to various audience. This continued till the emergence of Buddhist era. We cannot find any reference to Buddha in Mahabharata. So Mahabharata reached a near frozen state before the birth of Buddha.

Plus, the 6th century BCE date of Buddha is disputed. There are evidences indicating that Buddha lived in 9th century BCE. Even though AIT is now discredited, even by its former supporters like Romilia Thapper, the dates arrived at using this erroneous theory is not yet corrected and all dates related to the ancient history of India is compressed into the time frame of 1600 BCE to 100 BCE. Similarly the Iron age start date for India at 10th century BCE is also questionable. We cannot say with any certainity that Indians did not knew about Iron before 10th century BCE. The whole division of human cultural evolution as stone-age, bronce-age and iron-age is now disputed and under revision.

Aryan invasion theory is flawed as our scriptures don't talk about any other home of aryans than India. Hence, I also don't accept this theory. I think that Indus-Saraswati civilization grew into vedic civilization. People of Indus- Saraswati civilization later invented things like chariots, iron weapon etc. But the time of Krishna can't be 3000 BC. Nothing significant related to Mahabharata period (remains of horses, chariots, iron weapons etc)is found in the remains of Indus civilization. So I think that 900 BC is a more authentic date of Mahabharata. Mahabharata seems to be the History of ancient India preceding the Buddha period as the names of most of the places and tribes and the socioeconomic environment are same as that of Buddha period.

I think Sauti told the story of Vyasa's Jaya in an exaggerated way using ornamental language. All the prominent warriors now became equal to Indra and all the duels were similar to that of between Indra and Vritra. Particularly the final duels between Arjuna and Karna and Bhima and Duryodhana were exaggerated a lot.

It seems many myths have been created in later time to glorify some characters of Mahabharata. Such as Bhishma having the boon of "iksha mrityu",Yudhishthira going to heaven with his body, Karna having the "celestial armor and ear rings", Karna getting numerous curses in his life, Ashwattama having narayanastra and Drona having brahmadanda, Bhima having the strength of 10000 elephants etc

Even not so great warriors like Shalya became "invincible" just before their end. They have been glorified mostly using the name of krishna, Bhishma etc. We need to ignore these myths and interpolations and try to find out truth hidden behind them. I think that the core story and the 70% of Mahabharata is real and rest are interpolations and exaggerations.

I believe that Ganga left Santanu with her new born Bhishma. It seems she was upset with Santanu due to his affair with Satyawati. Santau married satyawati soon after Ganga left and got two sons from her.

My calculation of Bhishma's age :

At Vichiravirya's birth - 3 years
At Vichitravirya's death- (3+16) =19 years
At Pandu's birth- (19+1) = 20 years
At Arjuna's birth - (20+25)= 45 years
At Abhimanyu's Birth- (45+21)= 66 years
At kurukshetra war
(I assume Abhimanyu was 17)- (66+17) = 83 years

Jijith Nadumuri Ravi's website about the Hindu scriptures is a remarkable achievement and henceforth a very useful resource for scholars and for practising Hindus.

however, I don't understand your views on Kauravas birth.
Why you did not believe their birth? It could be some technique like test tube baby followed by Sri vyasa.
Now a days we are seeing these process was widely practicing.
This was just my guess only.

Thus:-

94: "And it has been heard by us that Kuru's highly intelligent wife, Vahini, brought forth five sons, viz, Avikshit, Bhavishyanta, Chaitraratha and Muni, Oh celebrated Janamejaya!"

could change to:-

94: "And it has been heard by us that Kuru's highly intelligent wife, Vahini, brought forth five sons, viz, Avikshit, Bhavishyanta, Chaitraratha, Muni and the celebrated Janamejaya."

Similarly:-

95: And Puru had a wife of the name of Kausalya, on whom he begat a son, Oh Janamejaya, who performed three horse-sacrifices and a sacrifice called Viswajit.

could change to:-
95: And Puru had a wife of the name of Kausalya, on whom he begat a son named Janamejaya who performed three horse-sacrifices and a sacrifice called Viswajit

Finally 'Ha' is a typo error(!!!). It is actually 'Ila' itself, but the OCR engine erroneously changed 'Ila' into 'Ha'. This I noticed much later. So this correction is to be made in my lineage charts and in many of my analysis articles.

It is us (living in 21st century) who give the name 'Indus Valley Civilization' to the civilization that existed in that area when Krishna was around there. This area (ie Indus Valley Cultural territory) was then the territory mentioned in Mahabharata as Dvaraka, Anarta, Sindhu (now Sindh, Pakistan) and Sauvira. All of them where trading / sea faring kingdoms. Sauvira is mentioned as 'Sophir' and its variant Abhira as 'Ophir', all referring to Indus Valley Civilization by texts of other civilizations that traded with IVC through land and sea. Thus, these names are found in many texts including Hebru Bible. This area is also mentioned as Suraabhira (the territory of the Suras and Abhiras and alternatively as the territory of the Sudras and Abhiras) where the once mighty river Sarasvati flowed in a partly dried up condition which is described vividly in Mahabharata. Current mapping of IVC settlement goes beyond the Sindh in Pakistan and extend to Gujarat, Rajastan, Punjab and Hariyana, which spans the kingdoms mentioned in Mahabharata such as Salva (where Krishna's enemy Salva ruled), Matsya (where Abhimanyu's father-in-law Virata ruled), Madra (where Pandava's uncle Shalya ruled) and Kurujangala (where Pandavas ruled). We thus have full mapping of the scenario depicted by Mahabharata in the civilization which is now known as Indus Valley civilization and more accurately as Indus Sarasvati civilization.

The article is very interesting
However there are conflicting dates

As you prescribe to Krisha's period to 3000 BC
How come Indus Valley Civilization is not mentioned as they also
were living along side during that time .

Second ; if a conservative date of 1000 BC is considered then too
the dead civilisation to have been mentioned in the scripture

Third if a much prior date before 3000 BC - say to 5000 BC
as suggested by an underwater discovery made that a lost city
Dwaraka found near Gulf of Cambay ; then too
How come IVC people was not aware of the city got swallowed by sea

Where as Tamil civilization at South India
is able to recollect about the Ocean devoring cities near costal line of Kanyakumari

All these contravercies has to have satisfactory explanation

I have not concluded as I leave for others and you to comment on my observation

Thanks and Regards
ANSabapathy

I've been trying to collect together the locations of the hermitages/asylums/ashrams of the Rig Veda composers by sifting through the Ramayana, Mahabharata, Puranas and Rig Veda. I have a list of coordinates for 11 rishis (See below). Considering north to be Punjab, South to be the southern tip of the subcontinent, west to be the Arabian Sea coast near Gugarat and east to Assam, it seems that I've found more descriptive details on those Rig Veda sages who had their hermitages in the east. I haven't found any reference to specific locations within the IVC site range along the Indus, except for Kashyapa near Kurukshetra. Perhaps I will use the info from the AnukramanIs (…/books/rig/ch1.htm) to search on other RV sages.

Yet, at this point, it seems the RV was mostly composed in the east by rishis of the Somavanshi and the Kshatriya employed the services of the Brahmana sages to propitiate the deified ancestors for support in gaining booty and territory from other Somavanshi tribes or 'dasas'. The 'dasas' seem to be, like the 'mlecchas', simply tribes that didn't participate in the RV culture. A few hymns to Indra ask for aid in vanquishing other tribal leaders, pointing out that these leaders do not make ritual offerings. If the IVC tribes were living comfortably, they might not have had a need to bribe the deified ancestors.

Recent discoveries at IVC sites reveal very little RV-type rituals, but a good measure of foreign trade, civil planning and something of a rather flat social hierarchy, which makes it seem like the IVC were far more established and peaceable and thus distinctly different from the RV culture. There is evidence that they knew yoga, so maybe they were already living according to Sanatana Dharm principles.

The later Vedic culture seems to have emulated the IVC lifestyle, putting more emphasis on intellectual and civil application of spiritual practice. Yet, once Kaliyug began, the influence of Buddhism elevated ahimsa to a level that makes any comparison between RV culture and modern spirituality in India impossible. I was shocked to read that Bharata's wives killed nine of his sons because he wasn't pleased with their potential as heirs to the dynasty (Ref: …/src-mbh-01:section-94). Frankly, it seems to me that the RV kshatriya and brahmana were ill-tempered psychopaths. Yet, the oral tradition of transferring knowledge without the need for any tools is a feat of true genius. Given what we know of human migration due to climate change, I think the Brahmanic method of education should be preserved and promoted. Already, we're 13,000 years into a 10,000 to 20,000 year interglacial period and may find ourselves in an other ice age, unprepared and looking for new homes around the equator, just as the tribes that left Africa long ago.

The Stephen Oppenheimer slides presents a migration route that makes perfect sense to me. Yet, given the distinctly different lifestyles between the IVC and RV cultures, there may have been a remnant in India after Sumatra erupted. If not, then perhaps there were a few migration waves out of Africa afterward. The archaeological information from IVC just doesn't seem to correspond with the fratricidal, chauvinistic and acquisitive RV culture. If the two cultures were contemporary, they were starkly different. However, if the RV culture came before the IVC, the problem is solved. After a few thousand years of living comfortably the aggressiveness would dissipate and tribes with different practices would simply agree to disagree, and be capable of coexistence within an abundant environment.

Feel free to advise on any of the opinions express or recommend information.

Here's the list of rishi hermitage coordinates I mentioned.

1. Gotama Rahugana, who delivered verses in Mandala 1, settled in Janakpur (26°42′44″N 85°55′18″E).
2. Agastya, delivered verses in Mandala 1, 7, 8 and 10, was originally from Haridwar or Kasinagara, relocated to near Chengannoor (9°19′6.54″N 76°36′50.46″E). The reason for the migration is given as 'Earth started to Tilt. Lord Shiva then requested Agasthya Muni to rush to the then South India and balance the Earth from further tilting.'
3. Dirghatamas Aucathya (Kaksivan Ausija), who also was inspired with verses in Mandala 1, was a chief priest of King Bharata in Hastinapur (29.17°N 78.02°E).
4. Grtsamada Saunohotra (Suhotra), a Bharadwaja inspired with Mandala 2, and his son of Vitahavya, a king of the Haihayas, is dubiously placed in the capital of the Haihaya Kingdom, Maheshwar (22.11°N 75.35°E).
5. Vishvamitra (King Kaushika), known for Mandala 3 practised near the confluence of the Saptakoshi River (26°54′47″N 87°09′25″E) in honor of his deceased sister, whose title was Kaushiki.
6. Atri (Athri), inspired to deliver Mandala 5, was met by Ram and Sita at his hermitage near Chitrakuta (19°12'35.00"N 81°42'4.08"E).
7. Angiras (Bharadwaja Barhaspatya), inspired with the verses of Mandala 6 is recorded to have had his hermitage near Prayag (25°26'14.38"N 81°50'41.71"E), and his ashram can still be seen there in Allahabad.
8. Vasistha, attributed with Mandala 7, had his hermitage near Guwahati (26° 5'41.77"N 91°47'4.28"E).
9. Kanva, inspired with Mandala 8, dwelt in his hermitage near Kotdwar ( 29°45′0″N 78°31′48″E).
10. Kashyapa, inspired with Mandala 9, resided near Kurukshetra (29.965717°N 76.837006°E).
11. Bhrgu's son named Chyavana is recorded to have had his hermitage near Dhosi Hill (28° 3'33.75"N 76° 1'48.71"E ) and it is assumed that Bhrigu would have been there too.

Source:
src-mbh-01:section-94
src-mbh-01:section-95

NOTE:
From the statements made in Discrepancy 1, I am inclined to think that there are actually 2 ancestral Janamejaya. One is a Kuru and the other is a Puru. I am also inclined to think that the Kuru Janamejaya is spoken of in Discrepancy 2. It seems advisable to read that the ancestral Kuru Janamejaya is the FOREFATHER in the lineage that leads down to King Santanu, while Vasya is the direct biological father of Dhritarashtra, Pandu and Valhika.

I believe there was an error in translation: In 94, Riksha is the son of Ajamidha and Samvarana is the son of Riksha. In 95, Samvarana is the son of Ajamidha and Riksha is said to be the fourth wife.

Another point of possible confusion relates to Daksha. Santhi Parva, section 207 states that sometimes Daksha is called Kasyapa and Kasyapa, son of Marichi, is sometimes called Arishtanemi.

95: Daksha begat Aditi, and Aditi begat Vivaswat, and Vivaswat begat Manu, and Manu begat Ha and Ha begat Pururavas.

207: The ten Prachetasas had one son between them, viz, the Prajapati called by the name of Daksha. This last has two names in the world, viz, Daksha and Kasyapa. Marichi had one son called Kasyapa. This last also has two names. Some call him Arishtanemi, and some Kasyapa.
Source: src-mbh-12:section-207

Discrepancy 1:
94: And it has been heard by us that Kuru's highly intelligent wife, Vahini, brought forth five sons, viz, Avikshit, Bhavishyanta, Chaitraratha, Muni and the celebrated Janamejaya.

95: And Puru had a wife of the name of Kausalya, on whom he begat a son named Janamejaya who performed three horse-sacrifices and a sacrifice called Viswajit.

Discrepancy 2:
94: And the sons of Janamejaya were all endued with great strength and became celebrated all over the world. And they were Dhritarashtra who was the eldest, and Pandu and Valhika, and Nishadha endued with great energy, and then the mighty Jamvunada, and then Kundodara and Padati and then Vasati the eighth.

And they were all proficient in morality and profit and were kind to all creatures. Among them Dhritarashtra became king. And Dhritarashtra had eight sons, viz, Kundika, Hasti, Vitarka, Kratha the fifth, Havihsravas, Indrabha, and Bhumanyu the invincible, and Dhritarashtra had many grandsons, of whom three only were famous. They were, O king, Pratipa, Dharmanetra, Sunetra.

Among these three, Pratipa became unrivalled on earth. And, O bull in Bharata's race, Pratipa begat three sons, viz, Devapi, Santanu, and the mighty car-warrior Valhika. The eldest Devapi adopted the ascetic course of life, impelled thereto by the desire of benefiting his brothers. And the kingdom was obtained by Santanu and the mighty car-warrior Valhika.

95: And upon her Santanu begat two other sons named Chitrangada and Vichitravirya. And before they attained to majority, Chitrangada had been slain by the Gandharvas. But Vichitravirya became king, and married the two daughters of the king of Kasi, named Amvika and Amvalika. But Vichitravirya died childless. Then Satyavati began to think as to how the dynasty of Dushmanta might be perpetuated. Then she recollected the Rishi Dwaipayana. The latter coming before her, asked, What are thy commands' She said, Thy brother Vichitravirya hath gone to heaven childless. Beget virtuous children for him' Dwaipayana, consenting to this, begat three children, viz, Dhritarashtra, Pandu, and Vidura.

Discrepancy 3:
94: The eldest of them, Ajamidha, was the perpetuator of the royal line. And he begat six sons, Riksha was born of the womb of Dhumini, Dushmanta and Parameshthin, of Nili, and Jahnu, Jala and Rupina were born in that of Kesini.

95: And Ajamidha had four wives named Raikeyi, Gandhari, Visala and Riksha. And he begat on them two thousand and four hundred sons. But amongst them all, Samvarana became the perpetuator of the dynasty.

As for the part of Aruna I read somewhere that only the top half of his body had developed which gave him wings and enabled him to fly and talk.
Well, I'm eager to know your opinion on this.

Whats the connection between Agasthyan and Sumerian Myths? Agasthyan's sumerian equivalent is who? Just started reading Kumari Kandham!

Regards
Ram

It was Seeradhwaja Janaka the father of Sita who lived in Treta. The Janaka whom Suka met in his lifetime seems to be a descendant of this Janaka. Apart from this, the Puranas often attribute well known historical personalities mentioned in Mahabharata as narrators of many Puranic dialogs. The narrative structure of Bhaagavatam is borrowed from the narrative structure of Mahabharata.

The famous Chaanakya / Jaanakya who raised Chandragupta Maurya to an emperor seems to be related to this Janaka lineage.

When we see a beautiful painting of Krishna, remember that it is a spectacle created by our eyes and our mind. The painting resolves into the molecules of colors and paper, which resolves into atoms, which resolves into electrons, protons and neutrons, which resolves into quarks and quantas of pure information and knowledge. What really existed is pure knowledge which appear to us as a beautiful image which allow us to focus on that divine knowledge, allowing us to meditate upon it.

Pandit Kota Venkata Chelam has established that the Mahabharata War took place in 3138 BC and the Kaliyuga started in 3102 BC , when Krishna ended his life.
For his arguments please see the blog:
trueindianhistory-kvchelam.blogspot.com

God Is NO shape , yes basically god is without shape, without any form, massless and weight less, is present universally, God never dies, God never evolve, never take birth etc.

God IS omnipresent everywhere,He is in billions(multillions) light year away, but simultaneously he is within everybody and within everything. He is the parabasic formation of the universe.

Most important is simultaneous presenceness of GOD, GOD make us obey the LAW of Attraction, Repulsion, Action, Reaction etc.

For example if i say bad words to somebody then i may hear bad words from him or somebody, this is because God is within HIM and ME simultaneously acting or reacting with the difference of intensities, Difference is because of Law of KARMA and the achieved state of particular body. God Gives us different State of MIND, BODY and Surrounding situations,
All this reactions and action takes place just because GOD is within HIM and Everybody SIMULTANEOUSLY. ULTIMATE GOAL OF GOD is distributing/absorbing emotions and feelings to/from living entities as per the LAW of Karma & State and Nonliving entities to produce the means of emotions and feeling to give to living entities as god decides within these living body and nonliving bodies. This Means Master Planer is within the bodies only but act simultaneously on and within every where.

Ultimately god is affecting, it is not a living or nonliving entities. That is God is acting and reacting simultaneously so final resultant is zero or infinite for that state of action and reactions.

So god is in absolute nature, he never wants to grow and to contract himself but of course intermediate state is between zero to infinite. Living and Non Living bodies has only vision or sense between zero and infinite state, they can not feel or visualize like God, they can feel or sense only particular state where they are. That means, to feel the particular state is false always, it can not be true or absolute truth.

God is aware of all the state. he feels or senses, all the state of living and non living entities at the particular relative time (time is relative in nature).

God is absorbing/distributing feelings and emotions because of He is within body.

Absorbing/Distributing Feeling is the process is in subtle in nature it produces/reduces energy at that level But final resultant of that energy is zero considering all the states which god aware.

We living bodies bound to do KARMA , GOD provided this property in our nature so we act or react accordingly.

Whatever the properties allotted to living or nonliving they should perform accordingly,
that is called DHARMA, Dharma has a rules to obey and disobey, we get reaction accordingly.

Why i said Ultimate goal of God is absorbing/distributing feelings and emotions, because it is only process taken place deeply in subtle in nature. There are different level of Subtle processes.One is surface, second is Intermediate and third is deep. Dharma and Karma always be performed at deep level, other two levels are for those where Dharma and Karma properties are not allotted to the living or non-livings.

Why we want to know God, when he is within us because we want to do as equal as God, 2nd we want to perform supernatural, 3rd we do not want more efforts, we want everything now. 4th We always want to challenge or fight something. 5th we have no satisfaction, 6th We want to empower others around us and so on.

But all these will not lead us to find GOD. Ultimately we perform a-dharma and because god is within everybody we face reactions on our actions.