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Book 12 Shanti Parva along with Book 13 Anusasana Parva is well known as late material added to Mahabharata corpus. Thus the reliability of information in these volumes is very less. Krishna lived in Dvapara Yuga - Kali Yuga junction in around 3000 BCE. His death marks the beginning of Kali Yuga, traditionally dated to 3102 BCE.

Mahabharata contain more than 2000 chapters / adhyayas distributed in 18 books / volumes / parvas. Please locate your information with book number, chapter number and verse number to remove any other confusion you may have.


Re: Erranous Dates by Jijith NadumuriJijith Nadumuri, 30 Apr 2013 12:05

The section of the Mahabharata from Chapter 12 forward dictates that Krishna lived during the Krita Age, which is another name for the Satya Yuga—which was from 11,500 BCE - 6,700 BCE.

Any comments?

Re: Erranous Dates by serenadeseaserenadesea, 27 Apr 2013 02:39

There is no denying that the battles are exaggerated by the bards such as equating every duel to that of between Indra and Vritra. But I would like to add, that the warriors like Karna, Drona and Ashwatthama were not 'ordinary'. In fact, even the anti-heros like Duryodhana is better than any person living today when it comes to Yogic power. Duryodhana is mentioned as immersed in Yoga submerged inside a lake, withholding his breath. Drona is the very preceptor who taught the greats like Arjuna. Archery in those days was based on spiritual powers, which is why disciples were initiated into spiritual and Yogic practices before they were taught to use bows and arrows. This is described in detail both in Mahabharata and Ramayana. Archery was called 'Dhanur-veda' and taught after the pupils were initiated into Vedas. They were taught how to meditate, how to concentrate their mind and how to focus their mental, meditative and yogic powers before they were taught to use weapons.

It goes without saying that like any other power, Yogic power too can be misused or could produce suffering to the world if it reaches wrong hands like Duryodhana and Ravana. That is why Yogis are even today advised to control their power and use it only to attain self-realization, not for worldly occult powers, that could turn dangerous if the person wielding those powers become corrupt.


by Jijith NadumuriJijith Nadumuri, 26 Apr 2013 07:56

Dear Jijith,

Though we can not deny the possibility of some consciousness based weapons in ancient times. But I think that only very few people can have that power. In Mahabharata you can see every Tom, Dick and Harry using brahmastra. All the battles have been exaggerated using ornamental language in later times. Now every duel became equal to that of between Indra and Vritra.

Warriors like Drona, Ashwatthama, Karna, etc were ordinary humans. They were never known for their spirituality or ascetics. So I think these Brahmastra, Narayanastra etc were some rocket like fire weapons but not the Nuclear bombs or missiles of present time. It appears to me that these weapons were man made fire arms and warriors had named these weapon after the names of some devas and sages.

In my view, the technology was not at a very advanced stage in those days. Kurukshetra war seems to be a conventional war. For the first nine days, this war was like a showdown from both sides. No serious direct encounters between maharathis. Soldiers from both sides were fighting at the front. By the 10th day, both the armies reduced considerably. Now the generals from both sides engaged each other in direct encounters.

by Anand ShankarAnand Shankar, 25 Apr 2013 18:25

Please read the article alien-presence-during-mahabharata which describes my analysis of some of the supernatural events mentioned in Mahabharata. This I have written 3 years ago, so there is some additions and modifications in my analysis on this, but it can be taken as a basis. Please also see de-mystifying-myths for a balanced view.

My general view is that poets have embellished and added a lot of their imagination and exageration in creating these myths found in Mahabharata (same with Ramayana and the Puranas). But undoubtadly they are based on some real experience or a historical core. Karna's armour, I have explained in one article as an armor made of new technology 'like the use of iron' for example, a little ahead of time probably, which made it to catch a lot of attention from other warriors and the bards, to the point that the bards and eulogists started singing that Karna had that armor right from his birth. In reality it could have specially designed by the iron smiths in Anga kingdom (ie central, south Bihar and Jharkhand, a place today is famous for its iron ores). I have written about it in murals-for-mahabharat and in more detail here episode7.

The celestial weapons are discussed here:-astras. Apart from what is discussed here, I am also now exploring the possibility of the ancient usage of consciousness based technologies. We generally tend to think that meditation techniques and concentrating on ones own conscsiousness is usually aimed at self-realization. That indeed is its primary and ultimate goal, but it seems it has many secondary usefulness and usage, known to the ancients but forgotten now. In this technique the practicionor is able to manipulate natural forces using thought power or using the power of meditation. A new research field is born in the last decade (2000-2010) which focus on the power of consciousness and its impact on the immediate surroundings and the cosmos at large. Stuart Hamerof and Roger Penrose are some of the leading scientists working on this issue. The conclusion of their theories is that 'consciousness' is not the result of brain-activity but it is an inherent property of the fine structure of the universe, like 'mass'. Brain simply act as an interface into this universal consciousness and the uniquness of data, information, knowledge and experience stored in each individual brain gives us individuality, ego, sense of separation and the illusion of many individuals. This new paradigm shift can explain what we know about celestial weapons, (Divya Astras) from the epics and Puranas. Thought power can generate tremendous energy fluctuations in the immediate natural surroundings. It can create force fields that can deter the harmful rays of a conventional nuclear radiation and it can as well produce a nuclear explotion by its own impact on nature. Remember that nuclear level is smaller than the atomic level and thus closer to the quantum level where consciousness is operating. Thus some of the weapons the warriors mentioned in the epics and puranas were simple ordinary weapons, some chemical like the fire weapon and some others were weapons made of conscious thought power. For more details see my articles:-

  1. http://recentvoice.wikidot.com/notes:vedanta-and-quantum-consciousness
  2. http://recentvoice.wikidot.com/search:site/q/consciousness

Dear Jijith,

What do you think about the supernatural events given in Mahabharata ? Were these myths have been created later taking clue from some real events ? How can a person take birth with an armor ? In Mahabharata we can see a warrior absorbing hundreds of arrows and every prominent warrior having "celestial weapons" like brahmastra.

What these so called celestial weapons were ? Some people say that these weapons were like the nuclear bombs of present time. But I don't think so. When Ashwatthama fired narayanastra at Bhima, Bhima didn't die. And when Karna fired bhargavastra, no pandava maharathi got killed. It could kill only some foot soldiers fighting in open.

Dear Anand

The 9th Century BC date for Kurukshetra war is arrived at based on the discredited Aryan Invasion Theory, which is inspired by the Biblical studies in 18th century, based on which the Biblical God created this world in around 4000 BC!

The calculations based on archeo-astronomy (ie based on planetary positions) is not vague and cannot be easily dismissed. It is having very high coherence with the various dates and corresponding planetary positions mentioned in Mahabharata epic. Inferences based on archeology are not conclusive as archeology is like an unfinished painting. New archeological discoveries can happen any time, new ancient sites can be unearthed any time and the data can swing in any direction.

The dates for Kurukshetra War arrived at using archeo-astronomy (3067 BCE) is close to the traditional date (3138 BCE) given to it by the Hindu tradition supported by ancient mathematicians like Aryabhata. This error of 71 years is reasonable, since it happened 5000 years ago.

We cannot under-estimate our own traditions and dismiss them so easily, especially since Indian mathematicians were the first to use decimal system, precise numerical measurements, geometry and algebra. The West came to know about Indian mathematics through Arab traders and till then they were using the crude Roman Numerals (I, II, III, IV …) which limited their ability to analyze large numbers or do basic mathematics like addition, subtraction, multiplication and division properly. This is why their world view was so crippled and childish, thinking that the world was created in 4000 BC. For them, 4000 BC was too huge a number and too distant into the past.

The points like 1) start of Iron age in India, assuming that it started in 10th century and that 2) place names found in Mahabharata matches with the place names found in Buddhist period of 6th century BC - are too crude to put any accurate date on Mahabharata. All it proves is that Mahabharata is older than Buddhist period of 6th century BC and Iron age start of 9th century BC, but it does not put any upper limit to the ancientness of the events described in Mahabharata.

However it is true that Mahabharata grew from its humble beginnings in 3000 BCE with additions from redactors who narrated it to various audience. This continued till the emergence of Buddhist era. We cannot find any reference to Buddha in Mahabharata. So Mahabharata reached a near frozen state before the birth of Buddha.

Plus, the 6th century BCE date of Buddha is disputed. There are evidences indicating that Buddha lived in 9th century BCE. Even though AIT is now discredited, even by its former supporters like Romilia Thapper, the dates arrived at using this erroneous theory is not yet corrected and all dates related to the ancient history of India is compressed into the time frame of 1600 BCE to 100 BCE. Similarly the Iron age start date for India at 10th century BCE is also questionable. We cannot say with any certainity that Indians did not knew about Iron before 10th century BCE. The whole division of human cultural evolution as stone-age, bronce-age and iron-age is now disputed and under revision.


Dear Jijith,

Aryan invasion theory is flawed as our scriptures don't talk about any other home of aryans than India. Hence, I also don't accept this theory. I think that Indus-Saraswati civilization grew into vedic civilization. People of Indus- Saraswati civilization later invented things like chariots, iron weapon etc. But the time of Krishna can't be 3000 BC. Nothing significant related to Mahabharata period (remains of horses, chariots, iron weapons etc)is found in the remains of Indus civilization. So I think that 900 BC is a more authentic date of Mahabharata. Mahabharata seems to be the History of ancient India preceding the Buddha period as the names of most of the places and tribes and the socioeconomic environment are same as that of Buddha period.

The time of Mahabharata by Anand ShankarAnand Shankar, 14 Apr 2013 06:20

I believe that Mahabharata is the ancient History of India preceding the Buddha period. But many myths have been added in it over a period of time. Many mythological stories(story of king Nala etc) were also added in Mahabharata.

I think Sauti told the story of Vyasa's Jaya in an exaggerated way using ornamental language. All the prominent warriors now became equal to Indra and all the duels were similar to that of between Indra and Vritra. Particularly the final duels between Arjuna and Karna and Bhima and Duryodhana were exaggerated a lot.

It seems many myths have been created in later time to glorify some characters of Mahabharata. Such as Bhishma having the boon of "iksha mrityu",Yudhishthira going to heaven with his body, Karna having the "celestial armor and ear rings", Karna getting numerous curses in his life, Ashwattama having narayanastra and Drona having brahmadanda, Bhima having the strength of 10000 elephants etc

Even not so great warriors like Shalya became "invincible" just before their end. They have been glorified mostly using the name of krishna, Bhishma etc. We need to ignore these myths and interpolations and try to find out truth hidden behind them. I think that the core story and the 70% of Mahabharata is real and rest are interpolations and exaggerations.

by Anand ShankarAnand Shankar, 08 Apr 2013 11:12

I think that Bhishma was in his early 80s during kurukshetra war. Though Bhishma was a great warrior and a healthy person, yet the effect of his old age is evident on him at kurukshetra. Bhishma needed a strong protection unlike Arjuna and Karna. I think that pandavas didn't want to slay their grand father themselves, that is why it became very difficult to kill him and Arjuna made Shikhandi to give Bhishma the final blow. This was also the reason why Duryodhana appointed Bhishma and not Karna(his favorite general) as generalissimo of kuru army on day one in kurukshetra war.

I believe that Ganga left Santanu with her new born Bhishma. It seems she was upset with Santanu due to his affair with Satyawati. Santau married satyawati soon after Ganga left and got two sons from her.

My calculation of Bhishma's age :

At Vichiravirya's birth - 3 years
At Vichitravirya's death- (3+16) =19 years
At Pandu's birth- (19+1) = 20 years
At Arjuna's birth - (20+25)= 45 years
At Abhimanyu's Birth- (45+21)= 66 years
At kurukshetra war
(I assume Abhimanyu was 17)- (66+17) = 83 years

Devdatta Patnaik is writing on Indian Mythology. Have you heard about him? He generalise the concept of Hindu God & Godessess.

Koenraad Elst, Research assistent at the Belgian Senate
To: JIJITH NADUMURI RAVI
Date: January 27, 2013

Jijith Nadumuri Ravi's website about the Hindu scriptures is a remarkable achievement and henceforth a very useful resource for scholars and for practising Hindus.


Appreciations by Jijith NadumuriJijith Nadumuri, 11 Feb 2013 15:11

I became a big fan of your page

however, I don't understand your views on Kauravas birth.
Why you did not believe their birth? It could be some technique like test tube baby followed by Sri vyasa.
Now a days we are seeing these process was widely practicing.
This was just my guess only.

Jijith NadumuriJijith Nadumuri 03 Jan 2013 12:52
in discussion Hidden / Per page discussions » Vyasa

Thanks for this post. I have noticed these discrepancies in the lineages described in two different chapters of Mahabharata. Please see this article:- puru-lineage. Comparing the two seemingly independant sources of lineage-hymns, we can select the names common in both of them as the 'solid part' of the lineage. In this way the repititions like Janamejaya, Parikshit, Dhritarashtra, Pandu (found early in the lineage than they should have been present) will get eliminated. These are results of erroneous translations as you suggested or they could also be 'chance' insertions. The name 'Janamejaya' or 'Dhritarashtra', for example can get errroneously inserted into the lineage because these names appear as part of the Mahabharata fram-tale which is a heirarchy of embedded narrations (dialog within dialog). At its core is the narration / dialog of Sanjaya to Dhritarashtra, which lies within the narration of Vaisampayana to Janamejaya which again lies within the narration of Ugrasrava Sauti to Shaunaka. So there is posssibility of the names like 'Janamejaya' and 'Dhritarashtra' accidentally getting added to the lineage tale. Once the name 'Janamejaya' is added erroneously, there is chance of addition of 'Parikshit' and similarly once 'Dhritarashtra'is added erroneously there is chance of addition of 'Pandu' into the lineage.

Thus:-

94: "And it has been heard by us that Kuru's highly intelligent wife, Vahini, brought forth five sons, viz, Avikshit, Bhavishyanta, Chaitraratha and Muni, Oh celebrated Janamejaya!"

could change to:-

94: "And it has been heard by us that Kuru's highly intelligent wife, Vahini, brought forth five sons, viz, Avikshit, Bhavishyanta, Chaitraratha, Muni and the celebrated Janamejaya."

Similarly:-

95: And Puru had a wife of the name of Kausalya, on whom he begat a son, Oh Janamejaya, who performed three horse-sacrifices and a sacrifice called Viswajit.

could change to:-
95: And Puru had a wife of the name of Kausalya, on whom he begat a son named Janamejaya who performed three horse-sacrifices and a sacrifice called Viswajit

Finally 'Ha' is a typo error(!!!). It is actually 'Ila' itself, but the OCR engine erroneously changed 'Ila' into 'Ha'. This I noticed much later. So this correction is to be made in my lineage charts and in many of my analysis articles.


by Jijith NadumuriJijith Nadumuri, 03 Jan 2013 12:52

One issue with the geographical location of sages I found is that, when their name is expressed as a single name such as Agastya, Vasistha, Atri, Angira, Gautama, Bharadwaja, Kanva etc, it cannot be pin pointed to a single individual; it can refer to any individual belonging to the respective gotra, since these names are used to refer to any individual belonging to the gotra or who is a descendant of the epynomous ancestor of that gotra. But ofcourse there is some accuracy when two names are involved such as Gotama Rahugana.


by Jijith NadumuriJijith Nadumuri, 03 Jan 2013 11:45

In Sumerian myths there is mention of seven fish people with beard and fish shaped attire. They are identified to be same as the seven sages mentioned in Indic scriptures. Sumerians consider them as the founders of their culture. Seven sages include Agastya as one. The seven sages or Saptarsihs are also instrumental in the development of indian culture. Fish symbolizes their connection with the seas. Fish also symbolises the Great Flood as in the story of Manu and Matsya incarnation and the Great Flood mentioned in Indic Puranas. It is possible that the seven sages originated from the sub-merged portions of Kumari Kandam and re-established culture in Dvaraka sea shore and Sarasvati valley which became Indian civilization and also restablished it in Sumeria (or they carried the flood myth to their locale). The re-emergence is identifiable with the Merhgarh culture in Sindhu-Sarasvati valleys around 7000 BCE, with plenty of farmland settlements which later gave way to Indus-Sarasvati urban culture since 3500 BCE.


Your reasoning is summarised in the article as approach 1:- "Blind Acceptance: The entire myth is absolutely true." There is ample information available in the Vedas and Puranas to know that the theme "sun travelling in a chariot" is a poetic imagination. While I appreciate the poet for his/her skill of imagination, I do not subscribe to the view that we need chariots tied to horses to travel in outer space.


by Jijith NadumuriJijith Nadumuri, 02 Jan 2013 11:50

Your reasoning is summarised in the article as approach 1:- Blind Acceptance: The entire myth is absolutely true. I suggest you to read the ancient Indic texts and find out sicne when the concepts / names like 'Brahma' and 'Kasyapa' started to mean what it is known in popular Hinduism of today. Almost all of them has their origin in the Puranas and all the Puranas are later to the core of Mahabharata. A large portion of Mahabharata evolved along with the Puranas.


by Jijith NadumuriJijith Nadumuri, 02 Jan 2013 11:46

More probable date of Krisha was around 3000 BCE (To be precise in around 3150 BCE. Krishna died in 3102 BCE, which the Hindus comemmorate as the start of Kali Yuga) . I am not in favor of 1000 BCE date which is derived based on the flawed Aryan Invasion theory. Nor am I in favor of 5000 BCE date. At 5000 BCE it was Kusasthali not Dwaraka. Kusasthali was the older city which got submerged much before the birth of Krishna. Mahabharata also gives a faithful record of how Kusasthali got submerged and how Dwaraka was built by Vishvakarmas there after its re-emergence. Marine archeology at Dvaraka area too reveals signs of several submergence and re-emergence of this region in the last 10,000 years. Vishvakarma means a 'generic engineer / generic architect', the likes of people who built towns and mansions which are now excavated as part of Indus valley culture. The Puranas converted this 'Vishvakarma' into a mythological figure and say that this 'Vishvakarma is the architect of the Devas'.

It is us (living in 21st century) who give the name 'Indus Valley Civilization' to the civilization that existed in that area when Krishna was around there. This area (ie Indus Valley Cultural territory) was then the territory mentioned in Mahabharata as Dvaraka, Anarta, Sindhu (now Sindh, Pakistan) and Sauvira. All of them where trading / sea faring kingdoms. Sauvira is mentioned as 'Sophir' and its variant Abhira as 'Ophir', all referring to Indus Valley Civilization by texts of other civilizations that traded with IVC through land and sea. Thus, these names are found in many texts including Hebru Bible. This area is also mentioned as Suraabhira (the territory of the Suras and Abhiras and alternatively as the territory of the Sudras and Abhiras) where the once mighty river Sarasvati flowed in a partly dried up condition which is described vividly in Mahabharata. Current mapping of IVC settlement goes beyond the Sindh in Pakistan and extend to Gujarat, Rajastan, Punjab and Hariyana, which spans the kingdoms mentioned in Mahabharata such as Salva (where Krishna's enemy Salva ruled), Matsya (where Abhimanyu's father-in-law Virata ruled), Madra (where Pandava's uncle Shalya ruled) and Kurujangala (where Pandavas ruled). We thus have full mapping of the scenario depicted by Mahabharata in the civilization which is now known as Indus Valley civilization and more accurately as Indus Sarasvati civilization.


Re: Erranous Dates by Jijith NadumuriJijith Nadumuri, 02 Jan 2013 11:36

Dear Mr. Jijith Nadumuri;

The article is very interesting
However there are conflicting dates

As you prescribe to Krisha's period to 3000 BC
How come Indus Valley Civilization is not mentioned as they also
were living along side during that time .

Second ; if a conservative date of 1000 BC is considered then too
the dead civilisation to have been mentioned in the scripture

Third if a much prior date before 3000 BC - say to 5000 BC
as suggested by an underwater discovery made that a lost city
Dwaraka found near Gulf of Cambay ; then too
How come IVC people was not aware of the city got swallowed by sea

Where as Tamil civilization at South India
is able to recollect about the Ocean devoring cities near costal line of Kanyakumari

All these contravercies has to have satisfactory explanation

I have not concluded as I leave for others and you to comment on my observation

Thanks and Regards
ANSabapathy

Erranous Dates by SabapathySabapathy, 24 Dec 2012 03:22
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