Both Europe and Africa are vying to lay the claim that Vedic civilization originated from Europe/Africa. cant be true.
1. Vedas make absolutely no mention of alost ho,eland of the people who wrote Vedas anywhere in Europe or Africa. Vedas sing praises of the Saraswati rivers/ and the himalayan peaks.
2. In Vedic philosophy, moving away from your matre-bhoomi (Mother-land) is considered inauspicious. In vedic shastra, if in a person's horoscope, if it predicted that a person will leave his home and make a home away from were he was brn, was considered the result of negative energy from inauspicious planets.
3. A Nomadic/moving civilization cannot produce something as profound and as scientific a philosophy as that contained in the Vedas. the best art/literature comes from civilizations that are settled. Nomads do not produce philosophies. Even solely agricultural societies only produce, well, agriculture. Not art/music. Education and learning is a pre-requisite for producing refined arts,science, culture.
Appreciate your comments. 1) Let me assure you that this article is not making any claim that Vedas were written in Africa (or in Europe). We cannot, for example, rule out the possibility of the African place-names mentioned here as being the influence of the ancient Indian sea-traders who went to Africa.
My current conviction is that the Vedas were created by the people who settled on the banks of Saraswati river in western India who lived there for many thousand years. 3) Thus I agree with you that it is not the product of a nomadic tribe who was on the move (like the many tribes who migrated from Central Asia to Europe).
However it will be wrong to assume that there was no culture before the Vedas. Human migration from Africa to India happened taking several tens of thousands of years and hence does not impact the question of the origin of the Vedic civilization on the banks of Saraswati in India. Some of the concepts like the central mountain named 'Meru' and of several chiefs who lived thousands of years apart with the titular name 'Manu' and the Matsya lineage could all be part of a pre-Vedic culture.
2) On the point of considering foreign lands (lands other than India or motherland) as inauspicious. I believe all the countries and places in the world to be equally sacred. What you mentioned could be a superstition. Certainly I have not seen any mention of it in the Vedas or in the two epics. May be I have missed it (you could help me with some reference?) or it could be in the Puranas. Perhaps you are hinting at ancient people's preference to the fertile Indian lands against the mountainous neighborhoods or their fear of loosing their traditions in the foreign lands.
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My take on this post is that the assumption of Mt Meru being a mountain in africa is contradicting the description of this mountain along with other geographical locations mentioned by the ARYANS in the Mahabharata. The Out of Africa theory is just a hypothesis and has been debunked when human fossils dating much older than the ones found in africa has been found in europe , Siberia , east Asia and Russia . Also according to Manu , the only description of the only home he has known was land of the seven rivers synonymous with North india. This assumption of humans migrating out of africa to other regions of the earth is absolutely hilarious and has no sound scientific proof . The vedas also give accounts of dates as much as millions of years old. If Noah's ark did land on the highest mountain peak , from which he and his sons descend , then it is by all means a peak of the Himalayas ,being the highest mountain on earth and he would've mentioned his original homeland about geographical places in africa which is not coresponding with the descriptions given in the mahabaratas , vedas etc.
Great research work. Explanations are so strong that no one can ridicule them so easily because they are interlaced with modern space and scientific knowledge. Young generation should go through this site..Thanks 12-7-2011
This site is such a wonderful resource for studying Rig Vedic culture! You have don't an amazing job of making this kind of research much easier and your level-headed, unbiased and clinical handling of the information is very much appreciated. Thank you. :D
I've been trying to collect together the locations of the hermitages/asylums/ashrams of the Rig Veda composers by sifting through the Ramayana, Mahabharata, Puranas and Rig Veda. I have a list of coordinates for 11 rishis (See below). Considering north to be Punjab, South to be the southern tip of the subcontinent, west to be the Arabian Sea coast near Gugarat and east to Assam, it seems that I've found more descriptive details on those Rig Veda sages who had their hermitages in the east. I haven't found any reference to specific locations within the IVC site range along the Indus, except for Kashyapa near Kurukshetra. Perhaps I will use the info from the AnukramanIs (…/books/rig/ch1.htm) to search on other RV sages.
Yet, at this point, it seems the RV was mostly composed in the east by rishis of the Somavanshi and the Kshatriya employed the services of the Brahmana sages to propitiate the deified ancestors for support in gaining booty and territory from other Somavanshi tribes or 'dasas'. The 'dasas' seem to be, like the 'mlecchas', simply tribes that didn't participate in the RV culture. A few hymns to Indra ask for aid in vanquishing other tribal leaders, pointing out that these leaders do not make ritual offerings. If the IVC tribes were living comfortably, they might not have had a need to bribe the deified ancestors.
Recent discoveries at IVC sites reveal very little RV-type rituals, but a good measure of foreign trade, civil planning and something of a rather flat social hierarchy, which makes it seem like the IVC were far more established and peaceable and thus distinctly different from the RV culture. There is evidence that they knew yoga, so maybe they were already living according to Sanatana Dharm principles.
The later Vedic culture seems to have emulated the IVC lifestyle, putting more emphasis on intellectual and civil application of spiritual practice. Yet, once Kaliyug began, the influence of Buddhism elevated ahimsa to a level that makes any comparison between RV culture and modern spirituality in India impossible. I was shocked to read that Bharata's wives killed nine of his sons because he wasn't pleased with their potential as heirs to the dynasty (Ref: …/src-mbh-01:section-94). Frankly, it seems to me that the RV kshatriya and brahmana were ill-tempered psychopaths. Yet, the oral tradition of transferring knowledge without the need for any tools is a feat of true genius. Given what we know of human migration due to climate change, I think the Brahmanic method of education should be preserved and promoted. Already, we're 13,000 years into a 10,000 to 20,000 year interglacial period and may find ourselves in an other ice age, unprepared and looking for new homes around the equator, just as the tribes that left Africa long ago.
The Stephen Oppenheimer slides presents a migration route that makes perfect sense to me. Yet, given the distinctly different lifestyles between the IVC and RV cultures, there may have been a remnant in India after Sumatra erupted. If not, then perhaps there were a few migration waves out of Africa afterward. The archaeological information from IVC just doesn't seem to correspond with the fratricidal, chauvinistic and acquisitive RV culture. If the two cultures were contemporary, they were starkly different. However, if the RV culture came before the IVC, the problem is solved. After a few thousand years of living comfortably the aggressiveness would dissipate and tribes with different practices would simply agree to disagree, and be capable of coexistence within an abundant environment.
Feel free to advise on any of the opinions express or recommend information.
Here's the list of rishi hermitage coordinates I mentioned.
1. Gotama Rahugana, who delivered verses in Mandala 1, settled in Janakpur (26°42′44″N 85°55′18″E).
2. Agastya, delivered verses in Mandala 1, 7, 8 and 10, was originally from Haridwar or Kasinagara, relocated to near Chengannoor (9°19′6.54″N 76°36′50.46″E). The reason for the migration is given as 'Earth started to Tilt. Lord Shiva then requested Agasthya Muni to rush to the then South India and balance the Earth from further tilting.'
3. Dirghatamas Aucathya (Kaksivan Ausija), who also was inspired with verses in Mandala 1, was a chief priest of King Bharata in Hastinapur (29.17°N 78.02°E).
4. Grtsamada Saunohotra (Suhotra), a Bharadwaja inspired with Mandala 2, and his son of Vitahavya, a king of the Haihayas, is dubiously placed in the capital of the Haihaya Kingdom, Maheshwar (22.11°N 75.35°E).
5. Vishvamitra (King Kaushika), known for Mandala 3 practised near the confluence of the Saptakoshi River (26°54′47″N 87°09′25″E) in honor of his deceased sister, whose title was Kaushiki.
6. Atri (Athri), inspired to deliver Mandala 5, was met by Ram and Sita at his hermitage near Chitrakuta (19°12'35.00"N 81°42'4.08"E).
7. Angiras (Bharadwaja Barhaspatya), inspired with the verses of Mandala 6 is recorded to have had his hermitage near Prayag (25°26'14.38"N 81°50'41.71"E), and his ashram can still be seen there in Allahabad.
8. Vasistha, attributed with Mandala 7, had his hermitage near Guwahati (26° 5'41.77"N 91°47'4.28"E).
9. Kanva, inspired with Mandala 8, dwelt in his hermitage near Kotdwar ( 29°45′0″N 78°31′48″E).
10. Kashyapa, inspired with Mandala 9, resided near Kurukshetra (29.965717°N 76.837006°E).
11. Bhrgu's son named Chyavana is recorded to have had his hermitage near Dhosi Hill (28° 3'33.75"N 76° 1'48.71"E ) and it is assumed that Bhrigu would have been there too.
One issue with the geographical location of sages I found is that, when their name is expressed as a single name such as Agastya, Vasistha, Atri, Angira, Gautama, Bharadwaja, Kanva etc, it cannot be pin pointed to a single individual; it can refer to any individual belonging to the respective gotra, since these names are used to refer to any individual belonging to the gotra or who is a descendant of the epynomous ancestor of that gotra. But ofcourse there is some accuracy when two names are involved such as Gotama Rahugana.
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Dear Jijith,
You are doing a great job analysing the ancient Vedic and Hindu scriptures. Thank you for all your dedicated work!
I'm also doing some research and would be delighted to hear your comment on the following questions.
1) ARYAS VS. MATSYAS MLECCHAS YAVANAS AND VAISYAS.
You mentioned in one of your essays that the Kurus were cultivating brahminical and ksatriya castes and had little sympathy for the trading and fishing communities surrounding their territories. The
arya brahmins dispise also the mlecchas and yavanas (Turks and Greeks) until today.
The reason for their disdain may be that the noble aryas disqualify them for their habit of meateating. Arya is about morality in life and spiritual advancement independent of bodily features, isn't it?
2) OUT OF AFRICA THEORY ABANDONED
The Out of Africa theory is no longer supported by intelligent scientists, except the mainstream, which turns the theory doubtfull anyhow. There have been two great scholars who maintain that the
arya nobility migrated from the North Pole.
One mystic is Lokamanya Bal Gangadhar Tilak, the inspirator of Nehru and Gandhi, who analysed the Rg Veda in jail during British rule. In the vedik rituals he found proof of the Arctic home of the Vedas. They worshipped the dawn of the new sun (after half year of darkness) and celestial bodies at the intervals of natural seasons existent only on the North Pole. At that time that place consisted of a land mass with a subtropical climate and lush greens. So, the oral tradition of Rg Veda must be prediluvial at least 10,500 years ago. Gangadhar Tilak, 'The Arctic Home in the Vedas' 1903 - (guests and low-karma users are not allowed to post links)
The other mystic was Manly Palmer Hall explaining that scientient life entered earth on the North Pole in subtle bodies that were not physical yet. Every living being and all biological cells in nature are constructed with a north and a south pole. Even an egg has a north and a south pole beaming different electromagnetic charges. Therefore, entrance onto the earth was possible only due to the magnetic fields on the Arctic. Hall says, the arya community existed on earth at least one million years ago (guests and low-karma users are not allowed to post links) The archaeological artifacts discussed by Michael Cremo in his books and videos support Hall's theory empirically.
3) CALCULATION OF THE YUGAS
There is confusion about the duration of the yugas mentioned in the Puranas. Svami Sri Yukteshvara Giri from the Himalayas, the disciple of Haidakhan Baba and teacher of Yogananda, published a small
book entitled 'The Holy Science', in the Introduction of which he shows the correct durations of the four yugas. Reason for the miscalculation of the brahmins was, that after the War of Kuruksetra, Yuddhisthira left for the Himalayas and took with him the best of his astrologers and scientists. Those who were left behind on the subcontinent didn't possess enough knowledge to calculate the complex astrological systems in the galaxy. The result was that they inflated each yuga with a factor of 100.
The Puranas tell us that Kali-yuga will last for 432,000 years. In reality, it will last only 4,500 years. Kali-yuga began at the end of Kurukshetra War and had its darkest period around 500 BC. The
dark age ended around 1500 AD. So according to the calculation by the yogis in the Himalayas, where the correct knowledge still exists, we are 500 years in Dvapara-yuga now.
4) THE VEDAS WERE LOOTED FROM THE TAMILS
The Tamils however will say that the Aryan deities - Vishnu, Shiva, Brahma - were 'looted' from the Tamils. The Persian 'immigrants' Sanskritised ancient Tamil knowledge and modified their scriptures
according to taste. The man who's doing the research of Tamil and Aryan history says, "The Deities are Tamil, the stories are Aryan". Their original mystic system was called 'Aaseevaham'.
The knowledge of the Four Vedas was given by Shiva at the First Sangam 10-20,000 years ago. Shiva contracted four disciples (the Four Kumaras, his 'brothers') to hear and remember his teachings. The researcher shows that Shiva was from the Paleolithic era, Murugan Mesolithic and Vishnu Neolithic. All these 'deities' were human beings who later became deified in temples of worship for the common man. Vishnu was a keen astronomer who went to Meso-America to teach the Mayas. The Mayan Calendar was taught by Vishnu. Shiva started the first Sangam and introduced written language in images for the first time. Two Sangams followed in later times from which the Tamil language was generated. 'The Ancient Culture of Tamils' (playlist) (guests and low-karma users are not allowed to post links)
What are your thoughts on these subjects, please, Jijith?
Namasté
Iris
Iris , very informative post. I would've love to hear Jijith's reply to your questions. I couldn't agree more with you that the Out of africa theory has no scientific bearing. however , according to the Mahabaratas and vedas , It couldn't be more resounding that India was indeed the homeland of the aryans . Its also the only region where the culture and Sanskrit language has remained alive . There are also no artifacts, symbols eg swastika , monuments , religious practices or names of geographical places mentioned by the aryans anywhere in the world that resembles the homeland or origins of the aryans but India.