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hi jijith
I have read most of your articles and some of your ‘postulates’ are extremely useful for further research. I call them ‘postulates’ because in some places more evidences or references are needed. I shall comment on them (they are my views only) later. It is also interesting to know that you are a good artist too. Your paintings are excellent.
Here is my doubt on your analysis about the Yadu tribe. You may agree that based on the references in Mahabharata and Bhagavata Purana that Yadus were leading a pastoral life moving from one place to other, rearing cattle. Rearing of cattle was their main occupation. So I find it difficult to consider them as Sutas, whose occupation was driving chariots and sometimes singing songs in praise of kings. Krishna’s choice to become chariot driver of Arjuna was just an exception case. You too consider Krishna to be a war-strategist, so I think becoming the driver of Arjuna is the best way he can communicate his strategies and implement them quickly in an ongoing battle.
Hi Rajeev
Thanks for posting valuable comments on my articles. In fact, through this site what I want to achieve is to raise some thought on various topics of Mahabharata, thus enhancing further research on these topics. I will try to establish references and evidences as much as I can, and anticipate further studies by myself as well as by other interested researchers for taking these assumptions, which you consider as 'postulates' to the next level, may be into a solid theory.
Thanks for appreciating my art-works. Hope you also have seen the 3D models and the interactive visualizations developed by writing computer programs, along with the paintings.
I agree with your point about the pastoral roots of the Yadu tribe. May be they started as pastoral nomads rearing cattle and later developed royalty and kingship. This case is similar to the Matsya tribe which had their humble beginning as fishermen on the banks of Saraswati and later developed royalty and kingship. Krishna is mentioned as driving chariot of Arjuna not just during Kirukshetra war, but also during the burning of Khandava forest. However, the 'Suta' terminology is applied to Yadus not just because Krishna, a member of this tribe is found to be Arjuna's chariot-driver. It is also because Mahabharata mentions Yadu's tribe as inferior to his younger brother Puru's tribe. The reason for inferiority is explained away by using a myth of curse. Yayati, the father of Yadu and Puru and their brothers gave sovereignty only to Puru and cursed all others including Yadu for refusing to exchange his old age with their youth. One way of looking at this is to accept this myth-of-curse by face-value. However I am in favor of a more rational reason. Please see my article on de-mystifying-myths on various approaches to analyse myths.
In Santi Parva we find a passage defining Sutas as off-springs born to a Kshatriya man in a Brahmana woman. Yadu's father Yayati was a Kshatriya and his mother Devayani was a Brahmana. Thus technically Yadu was a Suta. But, during the days of Yadu, caste (varna) was not very rigid. We find no objection in Yayati marrying Devayani. So the perceived inferiority of Yadus in comparison to Purus emerged later. The definition in Santi Parva about Sutas and other mixed castes emerged later. Since Karna was perceived as a Suta and became the subject of humiliation, we can conclude that Sutas were considered inferior during the time of Pandavas. So during the time of Pandavas, caste was indeed a problem area in the society. Probably it was the people during this period that considered Yadu's tribe as inferior to Purus. The fable about the curse on Yadu was probably invented by them. I also believe that this view was entertained only by some section of the Purus, probably an orthodox / conservative minority among the Purus.
Thus the Yadus did what ever they were doing (rearing cattle, leading a pastoral life, later attaining kingships, royalty and permanent settlements) while some orthodox members of the Puru tribe considered them to be Sutas or otherwise cursed or inferior to the Purus. Thus the dictate that a Suta should ride chariots or become bards who compose songs in praise of kings and warriors, was just the opinion of some orthodox Purus (I include the Kuru king Duryodhana as one among these orthodox Puru group). What Krishna did by becoming driver of Arjuna's chariot, among many other things (like to enable him to form war-strategies and implement them quickly, as you said) was also for mocking the conservative / orthodox views of people like Duryodhana, who considered Yadus as inferior to them, equating them to Sutas who according to them are to drive chariots or sing songs in praise of kings.
Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu is known as mahā-vadānyāvatāra, the most magnanimous incarnation, for He does not consider the offenses of the fallen souls.
CC Adi 7.4, Purport: As preachers of the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, we first offer our obeisances to Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu by chanting this Pañca-tattva mantra; then we say Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare/ Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma, Hare Hare. There are ten offenses in the chanting of the Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra, but these are not considered in the chanting of the Pañca-tattva mantra, namely, śrī-kṛṣṇa-caitanya prabhu-nityānanda śrī-advaita gadādhara śrīvāsādi-gaura-bhakta-vṛnda. Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu is known as mahā-vadānyāvatāra, the most magnanimous incarnation, for He does not consider the offenses of the fallen souls. Thus to derive the full benefit of the chanting of the mahā-mantra (Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare/ Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma, Hare Hare), we must first take shelter of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu, learn the Pañca-tattva mahā-mantra, and then chant the Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra. That will be very effective.
Thanks fallen for your comments. If you are passionate about the teachings of Krishna, you should read the original Bhagavat Gita, found as part of Mahabharata (Mbh.6.25:- Bhishma Parva Chapter 25 onwards), not re-interpreted by anybody, and if possible the original Sanskrit texts.
Given a choice, I would prefer Mahabharata than Bhagavata Purana to know about Krishna and his teachings.
In the search for knowing the ultimate truth, one must first take shelter of one's own sense organs. Once whatever that can be known by the sense organs is known, one must take shelter of one's own mind. Once whatever that can be known by the mind is known, one must take shelter of one's own intellect. Once whatever that can be known by the intellect is known, ONLY then must one abandon the intellect and proceed to attain the ultimate. Krishna does not like people who loose their brains, and chant his name millions of times because somebody said so.
I guess you are not among those who do so. I guess you know about the true purpose and meaning when you chant his name.
The content is moved to http://ancientvoice.wikidot.com/guest:greatness-of-bhagavata-purana-as-per-bhagavata-purana - Greatness of Bhagavata Purana as per Bhagavata Purana itself
The content of this comment is moved to http://ancientvoice.wikidot.com/guest:greatness-of-devotion - the greatness of devotion.
I appreciciate your efforts analyzing Maha Bharata.
Please check out:
ancientscienceofmind.blogspot.com
and let me have your input.
Thanks
Hi
Your explanation about Divya Astras being a Yogic state effected by concentration of mind seems to be plausible, especially since the whole world is indeed constructed using concentrated thought. The fabric of the universe is pure "data" / "information" / "knowledge" and it is fabricated using concentrated though. Hence a person situated in the Yogic state, as mentioned by you and applying concentrated though can tap into the fabric of the universe. While thus engaged, the medium of interaction with the universe can be as trivial a thing like an arrow made of ordinary materials (like wood embellished by sharpened metals at its head and feathers at its tail), shot from a bow which again is made of trivial materials (like wood and copper).
I have experienced the effect of concentration you mentioned while playing caroms. The hitting of the target accurately is indeed the result of the player's concentrated state of mind, manifested in the physical world as the accuracy of the shot. In case of Divya Astras, it is not only hitting the target accurately but also producing physical effects like fire, rain, wind or explosion is also involved. So I guess a grater level of mind manipulation over matter is involved here.
My personal life too had experienced "astras" in the form of concentrated thought directed towards the cosmic mind, which in turn materialize the results in my life as I desire it. Many phases in my life and many surprising events and experiences I had so far in my life was the result of such "astras" or concentrated thought.
A very interesting blog, you have! My best wishes for your noble plan for starting an 'ashram' / organization for studying and experiencing this effect further.
Hello,
Thanks for your input.Also,I appreciate your personal experience with the Divine Weapons.
In fact,my yogic efforts started when I happened to visit one of the persons(most strikingly similar to those ancient warriors) of whom I mentioned in my article.It was Yudhistira looking person.He was introduced to me by my Parasuram loooking Guru.I had an innate intuitive ability of sensing the state of mind and using the same state of mind(astra) of what my opponent was using while at play apart from using some other states too.
I happened to use them very elegantly and effortlessly where as I found some of the other people 'struggling' with their shot making despite good amount of practice.This kind of strange phenomenon was always a question mark for me.
It was when I was in a practice session with Yudhistira looking person,I found in him the same or even extreme struggle with his particular state of mind.Then i decided to work on what actually all these states are,as it seemed a part from my general philosophical interest the very 'subjectivity of motion'.It took 24 years to chalk out all those A to Z states with all the details of what and how of them.Yudhistira looking person really seemed to me as if affected by Kali more than any other person.He is strong,intelligent,bold,almost perfect and above all a very strict practitioner of all the humanly possible virtues…yet he was very much upset with his failure to maintain his perfect 'yogic state of mind' at play.
I was also very astounded with the power of his 'state of mind' when I started using it,intuitively yet.I almost stopped playing with him/others and got engaged in deep meditative study.I restricted my play only for the sake of study through yogic efforts using a carom board and billiard board as my tools.
This is how my journey started and finally,could unearth the whole of that science.
Hopefully you got my point.
Thanks
Dear Jijth,
Just to bring to your notice on who a Suta is. Manu smrithi chapter 10 gives an account of the people born of cross marriages. The person born of a marriage between Kshatriya male and Brhamin female is called as Suta. The job allotted to him is tending horses and driving chariots.
From
Manu smrithi -10
11. From a Kshatriya by the daughter of a Brahmana is born (a son called) according to his caste (gati) a Suta;
47. To Sutas (belongs) the management of horses and of chariots;
From this chapter of Manu smrithi it is known the people from cross marriages were not considered as pure varnas. Pure varna was determined by the attitude that gave rise to a specific capability to do specific jobs (swabhava becoming the cause of the swa karma). Pure varnas are 4 in number (Brahmin, Kshathriya, vaisya and shudra). When varnas got mixed, the swa karma will vary. Depending on the kind of the attitude supposed to have been inherited from the crossed varnas, the off spring is given a new name and allotted jobs in tandem with the inherited attitude. The offsprings were settled outside the Saraswathy basin. Saraswathy basin was occupied by pure varnas only. You will make this out from Varahamihira's Brihad samhitha.
There is a chapter on the countries of Bharat given in the shape of a Kurma, called Kurma chakra. There you come across the names of places and their locations. You will be surprised to see that most names of Manu's crossed varnas are by themselves names of places in Bharat. Example:- Nishada, Vaideha, Dravida, Abhiras etc. Nishada is one who is born to Brahmin male and a Shudra female. Vaideha is born to Vaisya male and a Brahmin female. Dravida is the offspring in Kshtriya lineage who has deviated from kashatriya dharma. In Brihad samhita his place is in the present day North Karnataka along the western ghats.
Thus the roots of all these clans can be understood from Manu smrithi. Among them, Suta has a special role. In chapter 84 of Shanti parva he is included in the council of ministers that a king must have. Bheeshma says that a king must have 4 Brahmins, 18 kshathriyas, 21 vaisyas, 3 shudras and one Suta as his ministers. The translation that you have is not exact on this particular verse. The Tamil translation that I have ( written 80 years ago by sanskrit and Tamil scholars of Kumbakonam) adds the other attributes given in that verse to Suta only. They are the 8 cardinal virtues and a sense of dignity, free from envy, conversant with the Srutis and the Smritis, humble, impartial, competent to readily decide in the midst of disputants urging different courses of action, free from covetousness, and from the seven dreadful vices called Vyasanas. Thus a Suta is prized possession for a king. Suta has played a vital role. Examples :- Sumanthra to dasaratha, Matali to Rama, sanjaya to Dritharashtra and krishna (though not a Suta by birth but only by work) to Arjuna.
- jayasree saranathan
Thanks Jayasree for your valuable comments and for the references from Manu-smriti and from the Tamil translation of the verse in chapter 12:84. I agree with your observation that the mixed races moved out from the Saraswati basin. I will also add the Magadhas to the list along with the Nishadas, Vaidehas and the Dravidas.
Without Sutas we probably would not have known about Mahabharata. Sanjaya the Suta was its primary orator and Ugrasrava Sauti the Suta was its final orator in the current form by which Mahabharata is known to us.
I guess apart from tending horses, riding chariot, attending to king as ministers or otherwise, Sutas actively participated in propagating Vedic knowledge by embedding them through epic narrations. They became custodians of the fifth Veda viz. the Mahabharata.
I am also pondering an interesting question:- Information about Varnas (caste) is found in Mahabharata and in Manusmriti. Which originated first? Mahabharata can be considered as a river of information which flowed from 3000 BCE to 500 CE. Did a dis-tributary of Manusmriti merged with Mahabharata or a dis-tributary of Mahabharata (verses from book 12 and 13) merged with Manusmriti? Obviously Manusmriti seems to be more focused on the subject (varna and social structures) while Mahabharata talks about it amidst many other topics.
Dear Jijith.
My thoughts on the last paragraph of your mail.
I think the river of information found in Mahabharatha gives a number of leads to the past history of Bharath and Asia itself. Uttar kuru, Sthree rajya, Aila etc can be decoded as Siberia, Staraya maina (where 8th century Vishnu temple has been unearthed) and Ila river basin which lies between Airavatha varsha and Bharatha varsha. I am currently writing a series on all these in Tamil in http://thamizhan-thiravidana.blogspot.com
Both the Ithihasas give valuable leads to the past. For instance on identification of the area of uttarkuru, Shugreeva's directions to vanaras on the search of the Northern countries (Kishkindha khand - chapter 43) locates it at Siberia north of lake Baikal.
I find Tamil texts also providing corroboratory leads to some info found in Mahabharata. For instance there is a Northern Chedi closer to Manasa lake
which was once ruled by Uparicharavasu. (In Brihad samhita also, we come across a Vasu in the chapter on Indra's Flag) People from that place had traveled to Pumpukar to attend Indrotsava. You will find the route taken by them as explained in Silappadhikaaram in Tamil in my article in this link :-http://thamizhan-thiravidana.blogspot.com/2010/11/10.html
On varnas, I consider that it exists in nature. Any human being can be assessed of his mental faculties on the basis of the three gunas and the four varnas. Manu did a detailed study of it for the purpose of human resource management. If you read the 10th chapter of Manu smrithi, it has a discussion on how to find out the kind of mentality that an offspring will inherit from the parents of same varna (mental nature) and different vanrans. The result of this research is the now infamous Manu neeti!!
After every deluge, Manu comes into being. I consider the yuga classification of Markandeya as more relevant as it coincides with one precession of Equinoxes which coincides with a deluge due to melting of Ice age. Refinement of Markandeya's classification has been worked out by me in this link.
http://jayasreesaranathan.blogspot.com/2011/01/on-yuga-classification-and-what-causes.html
In my opinion Mahabharatha is not about Manu neeti. It is about danda neeti and how it was being practiced and violated in the past. The story itself is about how humans behave and what kind of danda neeti is needed in a given situation. In Shanti parva, danda neeti is discussed under the caption Raj dharma ( as per the Tamil translation I have) and it comes after chapter 65 or so.
regards,
jayasree saranathan
Hi Jayasree, good to see your links. Some of them are in Tamil, which i could not understand. While i am not in agreement with some of your findings I am interested in some others like the one about the northern Chedi of Uparichara Vasu and that of the Chola - Sivi link. I wish all the best for your ongoing research.
Did any tribe or men from forest attack Dwaraka and took away the wives of Krishna?
If so, what was that incident> Was Krishna in Dwarak when the incident occured? How did Rukmini and Sathyabhama die?
Yes. This incident happened soon after Dwaraka sub merged into sea and after the death of Krishna. The women were not exactly the wives of Krishna (though that is one interpretation) but the women-folk among the Yadava tribe who were led by Arjuna from the destroyed city of Dwaraka to the city of Indraprastha in order to rehabilitate them. Then tribes of Abhiras attacked Arjuna and took away these women. It was like, these women were flood-victims, who, on the way of their rescue-mission, were abducted by some robber tribes.
Satyabhama became an ascetic. Rukmini ascended the funeral pyre. Some versions of Mahabharata say that both of them became ascetics and taught the philosophy of Krishna to the next generation of men and women.
Slight correction in this article -
Krushna and Jambavati's's son, Samb had married Lakshmana, daughter of Duryodhan.
At Lakshman's svayamvar, Samb tried to carry her away, but was caught and imprisoned by the Kauravas. Being Duryodhan's wrestling guru, BalaRama went to secure his release but found the Kauravas haughty and unfriendly. Enrage, Balarama dragged Hastinapur towards the Ganges with his mighty plow. Fearing death and destruction, Kauravas freed Samb and married Lakshmana to the Yadav prince.
Krishana the great personality is perfectly explained in the post. Thanks for the such a great information for Krishna and other related aspect of the Krishna and Mahabartha.Mahabharata and Bhagavata are great Epics of Hinduism and mythology. The explanation and presentation is appreciable.
From your article: Most conservative historical estimate place Krishna to be born before 1000 BC
Pandit Kota Venkata Chelam has established that the Mahabharata War took place in 3138 BC and the Kaliyuga started in 3102 BC , when Krishna ended his life.
For his arguments please see the blog:
trueindianhistory-kvchelam.blogspot.com
Yes. I am also subscribing to the date of 3102 BCE for Kali Yuga Start, which make Krishna to be born around 3200 BCE. Here I was referring to the view of orthodox historians who think Mahabharata war to be occurred around 900 BCE. See my article on Yugas which describes the pre-history of India from 12,000 BCE on-wards.
Dear Mr. Jijith Nadumuri;
The article is very interesting
However there are conflicting dates
As you prescribe to Krisha's period to 3000 BC
How come Indus Valley Civilization is not mentioned as they also
were living along side during that time .
Second ; if a conservative date of 1000 BC is considered then too
the dead civilisation to have been mentioned in the scripture
Third if a much prior date before 3000 BC - say to 5000 BC
as suggested by an underwater discovery made that a lost city
Dwaraka found near Gulf of Cambay ; then too
How come IVC people was not aware of the city got swallowed by sea
Where as Tamil civilization at South India
is able to recollect about the Ocean devoring cities near costal line of Kanyakumari
All these contravercies has to have satisfactory explanation
I have not concluded as I leave for others and you to comment on my observation
Thanks and Regards
ANSabapathy
More probable date of Krisha was around 3000 BCE (To be precise in around 3150 BCE. Krishna died in 3102 BCE, which the Hindus comemmorate as the start of Kali Yuga) . I am not in favor of 1000 BCE date which is derived based on the flawed Aryan Invasion theory. Nor am I in favor of 5000 BCE date. At 5000 BCE it was Kusasthali not Dwaraka. Kusasthali was the older city which got submerged much before the birth of Krishna. Mahabharata also gives a faithful record of how Kusasthali got submerged and how Dwaraka was built by Vishvakarmas there after its re-emergence. Marine archeology at Dvaraka area too reveals signs of several submergence and re-emergence of this region in the last 10,000 years. Vishvakarma means a 'generic engineer / generic architect', the likes of people who built towns and mansions which are now excavated as part of Indus valley culture. The Puranas converted this 'Vishvakarma' into a mythological figure and say that this 'Vishvakarma is the architect of the Devas'.
It is us (living in 21st century) who give the name 'Indus Valley Civilization' to the civilization that existed in that area when Krishna was around there. This area (ie Indus Valley Cultural territory) was then the territory mentioned in Mahabharata as Dvaraka, Anarta, Sindhu (now Sindh, Pakistan) and Sauvira. All of them where trading / sea faring kingdoms. Sauvira is mentioned as 'Sophir' and its variant Abhira as 'Ophir', all referring to Indus Valley Civilization by texts of other civilizations that traded with IVC through land and sea. Thus, these names are found in many texts including Hebru Bible. This area is also mentioned as Suraabhira (the territory of the Suras and Abhiras and alternatively as the territory of the Sudras and Abhiras) where the once mighty river Sarasvati flowed in a partly dried up condition which is described vividly in Mahabharata. Current mapping of IVC settlement goes beyond the Sindh in Pakistan and extend to Gujarat, Rajastan, Punjab and Hariyana, which spans the kingdoms mentioned in Mahabharata such as Salva (where Krishna's enemy Salva ruled), Matsya (where Abhimanyu's father-in-law Virata ruled), Madra (where Pandava's uncle Shalya ruled) and Kurujangala (where Pandavas ruled). We thus have full mapping of the scenario depicted by Mahabharata in the civilization which is now known as Indus Valley civilization and more accurately as Indus Sarasvati civilization.
The section of the Mahabharata from Chapter 12 forward dictates that Krishna lived during the Krita Age, which is another name for the Satya Yuga—which was from 11,500 BCE - 6,700 BCE.
Any comments?
Book 12 Shanti Parva along with Book 13 Anusasana Parva is well known as late material added to Mahabharata corpus. Thus the reliability of information in these volumes is very less. Krishna lived in Dvapara Yuga - Kali Yuga junction in around 3000 BCE. His death marks the beginning of Kali Yuga, traditionally dated to 3102 BCE.
Mahabharata contain more than 2000 chapters / adhyayas distributed in 18 books / volumes / parvas. Please locate your information with book number, chapter number and verse number to remove any other confusion you may have.
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